Author Topic: Electric shower, anything I can do?  (Read 12554 times)

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Offline Nusa

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Re: Electric shower, anything I can do?
« Reply #50 on: July 25, 2019, 10:36:13 pm »
For reference I draw schematic how hot water and heating is arranged here traditionally. (altought these days heat pumps are very much in, oil not so much)
The problem with using a heat exchanger in the big heating tank for domestic hot water is that (1) you need the big tank always hot, which makes no sense when you do not need heating, and (2) efficiency suffers.

I totally agree with you in general. However, the costs of that decision varies greatly with climate, since it's a pretty efficient solution when you DO need heating.

Nauris's "here" is presumably Finland. The heating season encompasses the bulk of the year. It happens I am of Finnish heritage, and spent a year there as a child. That's when I learned to ice skate, although I was pretty inept compared to the local kids.

Your here is presumably Spain, which I believe has a long hot summer. Not the same thing at all.

Where I am currently (coastal southern california) my heating season is about 1 month long. It wouldn't make sense at all.

The bulk of the UK is probably closer to Finland in climate than either of us.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2019, 10:40:27 pm by Nusa »
 

Offline soldar

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Re: Electric shower, anything I can do?
« Reply #51 on: July 25, 2019, 11:48:38 pm »
Well, yes, obviously any solution needs to be tailored to the specific circumstances and many factors come into play like different costs of energy sources, type of use, etc.
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Offline Someone

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Re: Electric shower, anything I can do?
« Reply #52 on: July 26, 2019, 03:22:46 am »
All the units I'm familiar with do have power control with ratios over 20, even beyond a factor of 30 so based on your choice of numbers they work fine. This is going back 20 years so its nothing new or exclusive, there are multiple suppliers of products which meet those requirements.

I am interested in this. I'd like to see a gas water heater that can modulate output from say 12 KW down to say 500 W. Sounds very interesting. 

Other than that there is no need to belittle my preference just as I don't belittle yours. You do whatever you want. I don't care. Just allow others their own choice.
Not disagreeing with your preferences but you repeated provably false statements as fact, so just correcting your misinformed position that you make so loudly. 500W is down in the electric power level, most gas systems bottom out at a few kW but since they are all continuous flow models you can have multiple in series/parallel configurations for people with very special requirements for ranges or volumes of water.

If you can't possibly wash you hands in the kitchen with 43 degree water while someone else is showering, or wait for them to finish their shower before running a washing tub at 60 degrees, then you've got some first world problems.

So you are suggesting that when I want hot water of X degrees for X purpose I put my shoes on and go out to the boiler and set the hot water temperature manually and when I then want to use the water at Y degrees for Y purpose I go and change the temperature at the boiler again?

Who does that?  In fact most combi boilers with on demand hot water are just set at MAX and you mix hot and cold at the demand with a mixer tap.  They are of course differential, so if you want a low temp, it's mostly cold and very little hot is used.  The boiler will put out hotter water with a lessened flow, but it's really not an issue and surprisingly easy to balance by moving the tap, or shower valve.

The benefit of this approach with a shower is that you must mix a bunch of cold into the hot, which gives you even higher pressure.
Its like you are living in the 19th century. We have controls inside the house to set the temperature, no messing with mixer taps to try and get the temperature where you want it.
 

Offline sambonator

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Re: Electric shower, anything I can do?
« Reply #53 on: July 26, 2019, 04:08:27 am »
I thought this thread was about this...
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Offline paulcaTopic starter

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Re: Electric shower, anything I can do?
« Reply #54 on: July 26, 2019, 06:50:03 am »
Its like you are living in the 19th century. We have controls inside the house to set the temperature, no messing with mixer taps to try and get the temperature where you want it.

Do you have multiple boilers too for when there are more than one person in the house and they want different water temp?  What about when the washing machine fills (if it's a hot fill model)?

In the UK the heating systems are fairly simple and as someone correctly pointed out the "heating season" is most of the year.  In fact I run my heating at least 30 minutes every morning 365 days a year.  In summer here, if it's sunny and/or warm then you really don't need the heating, but "summer" here in Northern Ireland is about one, maybe two weeks, before it returns to cloudy, rainy, cool and damp again and the heating will be needed the odd evening.  From September to May it's needed at least 1-2 hours a day, more like 4-8 hours a day in winter when it's -2*C in the mornings, is dawn at 9am, dusk at 4pm and the temp barely gets above 5*C most days.

19th century, no, but my house, like the vast majority of them was build decades ago (1968 actually).  There are houses around here build 100 years ago.  Sure they could be modernised (and I'm trying to modernise mine), but there are limits to what you can do depending on your budget.  New builds with vast acreage are very rare here, unless you want to live in the middle or nowhere or can afford to spend millions on your house.  I gather that is not quite the same as Aus.  A 3 bed semi detached with a total of aprox. 100m2 footprint is circa 150,000GBP, a large detached house with 200m2 is going to cost you 300,000GBP.  Renovating that £150,000 house to be all modern tech like your image suggests will cost you 30,000-100,000GBP.  Even just a new basic heating system will cost me 3,000-5,000.
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Offline soldar

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Re: Electric shower, anything I can do?
« Reply #55 on: July 26, 2019, 08:18:53 am »
First you said:
All the units I'm familiar with do have power control with ratios over 20, even beyond a factor of 30 so based on your choice of numbers they work fine. This is going back 20 years so its nothing new or exclusive, there are multiple suppliers of products which meet those requirements.

Now you contradict that:
500W is down in the electric power level, most gas systems bottom out at a few kW but since they are all continuous flow models you can have multiple in series/parallel configurations for people with very special requirements for ranges or volumes of water.

I think you may be overestimating your knowledge in this field.

Not disagreeing with your preferences but you repeated provably false statements as fact, so just correcting your misinformed position that you make so loudly.

There is a bunch of us here having a pleasant exchange and your aggressive and unpleasant attitude just ruins it for me. Other people seem to be able to disagree without being disagreeable. I do not need this and will not be addressing any aggressive posts. I hope whatever is bothering you gets resolved and you can enjoy a good day. And if it is my posts that upset you I recommend using the "ignore poster" list. It works very well for me. Posters that I do not consider worth my time go on that list and it saves me a lot of scrolling.

« Last Edit: July 26, 2019, 08:22:53 am by soldar »
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Offline paulcaTopic starter

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Re: Electric shower, anything I can do?
« Reply #56 on: July 26, 2019, 09:37:03 am »
Anyway, I have found this discussion interesting.  Obviously as I am embarking on an expensive change to my heating system to modernise it I'm a little nervous about picking the wrong approach.

While realising the international audience and different climates and different types of system out there, I thought I would ask for opinions on the merits between the options I have.

1.  Keep the same basic type of system, ie.  a "System boiler" which has the heat exchange coil in the hot tank, ideally with an electric valve to choose between hot water only, heating only or both.

2.  Replumb the system to be on-demand hot water only, removing the hot tank entirely.

To be honest, having lived with option 2 for nearly 15 years I do really like it.  The downside is it removes my ability to later use solar PV water heating.  Also the heat fed into the hot tank from solar pv would of course transfer to the radiators when the circ pump is on, it would save money (a little) in space heating too.
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Offline SteveyG

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Re: Electric shower, anything I can do?
« Reply #57 on: July 26, 2019, 09:50:16 am »
Anyway, I have found this discussion interesting.  Obviously as I am embarking on an expensive change to my heating system to modernise it I'm a little nervous about picking the wrong approach.

While realising the international audience and different climates and different types of system out there, I thought I would ask for opinions on the merits between the options I have.

1.  Keep the same basic type of system, ie.  a "System boiler" which has the heat exchange coil in the hot tank, ideally with an electric valve to choose between hot water only, heating only or both.

2.  Replumb the system to be on-demand hot water only, removing the hot tank entirely.

To be honest, having lived with option 2 for nearly 15 years I do really like it.  The downside is it removes my ability to later use solar PV water heating.  Also the heat fed into the hot tank from solar pv would of course transfer to the radiators when the circ pump is on, it would save money (a little) in space heating too.

Personally, I would not choose a system boiler. If you're going down the route of an unvented cylinder then go for a heat-only boiler and keep the rest external - it'll be more maintainable.

Have you measured your water supply to even know if a combi boiler is a viable option?
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Offline soldar

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Re: Electric shower, anything I can do?
« Reply #58 on: July 26, 2019, 09:55:00 am »
The downside is it removes my ability to later use solar PV water heating.  Also the heat fed into the hot tank from solar pv would of course transfer to the radiators when the circ pump is on, it would save money (a little) in space heating too.
What do you mean by "PV"?  wouldn't you just use plain solar collectors? PV, photovoltaic, is to generate electricity.

Regarding choices, you have to make your own. Nobody knows what suits you better than yourself. As you can see there are plenty of different views and tastes. If you are not entirely sure then do what I try to do which is to do things in a way they can easily be altered later.

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Offline paulcaTopic starter

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Re: Electric shower, anything I can do?
« Reply #59 on: July 26, 2019, 10:29:36 am »
What do you mean by "PV"?  wouldn't you just use plain solar collectors? PV, photovoltaic, is to generate electricity.

Regarding choices, you have to make your own. Nobody knows what suits you better than yourself. As you can see there are plenty of different views and tastes. If you are not entirely sure then do what I try to do which is to do things in a way they can easily be altered later.

Thermal solar doesn't work very well here.  Sure it might work in summer, but in winter by the time they have started to warm up the sun is going down.  They also require circulation pumps to be maintained and if they fail in summer the panels can burst.  In winter if it gets very cold they have to be heated to stop them freezing, depending of course on how much anti-freeze you put in their loop.  They require a dual coil hot tank here too.

Solar PV -> MPPT Controller -> DC Immersion heater is more efficient here as at noon 1kW of panels will still produce close to 1kW of power, even in the dead of winter when it's -10*C outside.

I'm not asking for people to make the decision for me, just looking for opinions and considerations that I may, or may not have considered.
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Offline paulcaTopic starter

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Re: Electric shower, anything I can do?
« Reply #60 on: July 26, 2019, 10:33:18 am »
Personally, I would not choose a system boiler. If you're going down the route of an unvented cylinder then go for a heat-only boiler and keep the rest external - it'll be more maintainable.

Have you measured your water supply to even know if a combi boiler is a viable option?

I have a heating company coming to do a survey on Monday, so I'm sure they will test this and present me my options.

What do you mean "heat-only" boiler?  Do you mean that the boiler heats only the radiators and not the water tank or do you mean a combi boiler with on demand heating?

If it's "heat-only" I would of course need another way to heat hot water.  Electric heater is not really an option due to cost and environmental aspects in that electric heating is the least efficient by a fact of around 3.  Basically the utility company burns oil or gas to produce electricity at about 35% efficiency, making electric heating only possibly viable for heating a single room, where running the whole house heating would be wasteful.
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Offline soldar

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Re: Electric shower, anything I can do?
« Reply #61 on: July 26, 2019, 11:17:36 am »
Solar PV -> MPPT Controller -> DC Immersion heater is more efficient here as at noon 1kW of panels will still produce close to 1kW of power, even in the dead of winter when it's -10*C outside.

Interesting. Never seen that.
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Offline Someone

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Re: Electric shower, anything I can do?
« Reply #62 on: July 26, 2019, 12:48:33 pm »
First you said:
All the units I'm familiar with do have power control with ratios over 20, even beyond a factor of 30 so based on your choice of numbers they work fine. This is going back 20 years so its nothing new or exclusive, there are multiple suppliers of products which meet those requirements.

Now you contradict that:
500W is down in the electric power level, most gas systems bottom out at a few kW but since they are all continuous flow models you can have multiple in series/parallel configurations for people with very special requirements for ranges or volumes of water.
No contradiction, there are instantaneous gas heaters with 20x or greater dynamic range, and there are small electric instantaneous heaters suited for low flow/low power requirements. Instantaneous gas heaters are not suited to low flow situations as you have pointed out as they have limited dynamic range, but those limitations are overblown as few people have need for low flow at a low temperature rise.
 

Offline richard.cs

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Re: Electric shower, anything I can do?
« Reply #63 on: July 26, 2019, 12:54:02 pm »
Solar PV -> MPPT Controller -> DC Immersion heater is more efficient here as at noon 1kW of panels will still produce close to 1kW of power, even in the dead of winter when it's -10*C outside.

Interesting. Never seen that.
That approach has been discussed on here a few times. Overall efficiency is much lower in terms of Watts per roof area, but unless you are space constrained you use a larger area of PV to get the amount of heat you want, and the total cost of ownership can be lower that an equivalent solar-thermal system because you don't have wet circulating loops, pumps, etc. to maintain and because PV benefits a lot from economies of scale.
 

Offline GlennSprigg

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Re: Electric shower, anything I can do?
« Reply #64 on: July 26, 2019, 12:54:15 pm »
Its like you are living in the 19th century.........

I know I'm digressing, but that's what makes life interesting...  :D
I understand, but have always hated, the... "19th Century"... vs the... "18-Hundreds" nomenclature!
There's something unsettling in my 'brain' during quiz shows or what ever, getting it right !!

An old German friends mother was talking to me once. I may be shot down here, but I was told she uses
'old' German, to describe the time ???   To me, if it was say "9:40pm", we would say it like that...
However, she would say... "It is 5 mins until 3/4 of 10"...   Aarrgghh  xxx   :-\
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Offline paulcaTopic starter

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Re: Electric shower, anything I can do?
« Reply #65 on: July 26, 2019, 03:17:01 pm »
I understand, but have always hated, the... "19th Century"... vs the... "18-Hundreds" nomenclature!
There's something unsettling in my 'brain' during quiz shows or what ever, getting it right !!

It's okay, the entire world (or the vast majority of it) celebrated the new millennia a whole year early.

There was no year 0.  We started on year one, so the end of 2000 years happened on December 31st 2001, not 2000.
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Offline soldar

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Re: Electric shower, anything I can do?
« Reply #66 on: July 26, 2019, 04:07:56 pm »
I never understood the problem or the confusion. I guess it is because I was taught the difference between ordinal and cardinal numbers.

A baby in its second year of life is one year old.

In 1859 18 centuries had been completed but it was into the 19th century.

Different cultures count different ways. A baby is born into its first year of life so some cultures will say the baby is one, meaning it is in the first year of life.

Jesus Christ died on a Friday and rose on the following Sunday "on the third day".  We would say only two days transpired but the way they counted Friday was the first day, Saturday was the second day and Sunday was the third day.
 
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Offline Seekonk

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Re: Electric shower, anything I can do?
« Reply #67 on: July 26, 2019, 04:22:53 pm »
I have PV water heating at my camp and those little 6 gallon tanks are plenty for a shower.  500W of grid tie panels (+60V) is sufficient to power the heaters in light use.  I use a simple circuit that keeps the panels at power point and efficient.  Even get to use the tanks existing thermostat at that voltage without arcing.  A fun way to do a little solar that actually pays for itself.
 

Offline paulcaTopic starter

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Re: Electric shower, anything I can do?
« Reply #68 on: July 26, 2019, 04:54:40 pm »
Jesus Christ died on a Friday and rose on the following Sunday "on the third day".  We would say only two days transpired but the way they counted Friday was the first day, Saturday was the second day and Sunday was the third day.

I always had a pet hatred of inclusive/exclusive ranges.  I still do.  I 99.9% of the time get the right answer to questions like, "How many days are there until pay day?", pay day is the 25th, today is the 12th.  13 days.  However I will 99.9% of the time refuse to accept the intuitive answer and disappear off the down the rabbit hole until I can mathematically prove to myself I've considered the inclusion or exclusion of the boundary numbers.... or counting the days on my fingers.

It's exactly the same as the suspicion new programmers have upon seeing:

for( int i=0; i<10; i++ ) {print i;}

It will execute 10 times, but 10 will never be printed.  If you rewrite it as a while loop it's even worse.

i=0;
while( i<10 ) {
    i++;
    print i;
}
How many times and will 10 be printed?  10 and yes.

or
i=0;
do {
  print i;
  i++;
until( i > 10);

Sometimes I have to write a while loop in my head to work out how many days there are between two dates. :)  (kidding)
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Offline Nauris

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Re: Electric shower, anything I can do?
« Reply #69 on: July 26, 2019, 08:17:14 pm »
The problem with using a heat exchanger in the big heating tank for domestic hot water is that (1) you need the big tank always hot, which makes no sense when you do not need heating, and (2) efficiency suffers.
Electric tank not much loss, it has great insulation all around but the oil boiler - that really sucks in the summer. Some people actually have electric tank for summer so the oil boiler can stay off, that saves a lot of oil.
Quote
On demand combined heaters here do that and it works for certain values of "works". One advantage of not heating the domestic hot water directly with the flame but through an exchanger is that is adds a lot of temperature stability but, again, efficiency suffers a lot.
I drew a better schematic, this gives both temperature stability and good efficiency.
It is easy to integrate solar heating to it, also there is auxliary electric heater should the gas burner fail. Also solar power heats both water and radiators.

Gas burner is controlled by tank thermostat so that if tank falls below 50 C gas heats it up to 60 C or so. And if there is plenty of solar then tank temperature never fall and gas burner don't need to run.
 

Offline soldar

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Re: Electric shower, anything I can do?
« Reply #70 on: July 26, 2019, 08:49:31 pm »
For space heating I prefer, if possible, the greatest heating exchange surface and the lowest fluid temperature. That is the most efficient because the takes most heat out of the burning gases. If I could I would install subflooring heating but it is too expensive to retrofit.

So the thing is that if you want domestic hot water at 55ºC then you need the water tank to be at substantially higher temperature which means lower efficiency because you could be heating the house with water at 45ºC and gaining in efficiency.

All engineering solutions are compromises.

Regarding the heat losses of a tank I guess they can be minimized as much as you want by adding insulation. I should measure how much my tank loses. In the winter it does not matter but in the summer it would add a bit of load to the AC.
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Offline paulcaTopic starter

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Re: Electric shower, anything I can do?
« Reply #71 on: July 27, 2019, 07:49:48 am »
Regarding the heat losses of a tank I guess they can be minimized as much as you want by adding insulation. I should measure how much my tank loses. In the winter it does not matter but in the summer it would add a bit of load to the AC.

I can't remember exact figures, but someone on here mentioned how much temperature their tank lost overnight in 8 hours and we worked it out as something like 90W of heat loss.  Not much, modern insulated tanks are surprisingly efficient at holding heat.  My own, old copper tank, with a tied on blanket to insulate it is still perfectly warm at bedtime when the heating was only on for 30 minutes at dawn.
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Offline soldar

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Re: Electric shower, anything I can do?
« Reply #72 on: July 27, 2019, 10:39:06 am »
Heat loss will depend on the size of the tank and, importantly, on the temperature of the water. 90W sounds like a reasonable figure from an engineering point of view but I would try to bring it down with additional insulation. 90W over a year can add up to more than 100 euro.   To put it in perspective, my refrigerator uses less than half that. It has a 100W motor which is running on average less than 45% of the time.

That is an advantage of on-demand heaters. No heat loss when not in use. I have a tank in my second home and when I am away I turn it off which means waiting some hours for hot water when I return. Not a problem for me at all but it might be for some people. Also, I may arrive for a weekend, heat the tank and leave so most of the heat will be lost and wasted.
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Offline GlennSprigg

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Re: Electric shower, anything I can do?
« Reply #73 on: July 28, 2019, 11:18:32 am »
Jesus Christ died on a Friday and rose on the following Sunday "on the third day".  We would say only two days transpired but the way they counted Friday was the first day, Saturday was the second day and Sunday was the third day.

I always had a pet hatred of inclusive/exclusive ranges.  I still do.  I 99.9% of the time get the right answer to questions like, "How many days are there until pay day?", pay day is the 25th, today is the 12th.  13 days.  However I will 99.9% of the time refuse to accept the intuitive answer and disappear off the down the rabbit hole until I can mathematically prove to myself I've considered the inclusion or exclusion of the boundary numbers.... or counting the days on my fingers.

It's exactly the same as the suspicion new programmers have upon seeing:

for( int i=0; i<10; i++ ) {print i;}

It will execute 10 times, but 10 will never be printed.  If you rewrite it as a while loop it's even worse.

i=0;
while( i<10 ) {
    i++;
    print i;
}
How many times and will 10 be printed?  10 and yes.

or
i=0;
do {
  print i;
  i++;
until( i > 10);

Sometimes I have to write a while loop in my head to work out how many days there are between two dates. :)  (kidding)

Yep, the examples you quoted can be (are) tricky to the uninitiated, though each coding has it's purpose/use.
I was going to respond here, 'next Tuesday', (Sunday here now), but I think I've been told that this will mean
that I wouldn't reply for 9 days, instead of 2 days time !!   8)

My apologies to the O.P. for going off topic again...   ;D
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Offline james_s

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Re: Electric shower, anything I can do?
« Reply #74 on: July 28, 2019, 10:18:44 pm »
Its like you are living in the 19th century. We have controls inside the house to set the temperature, no messing with mixer taps to try and get the temperature where you want it.



I've never seen anything like that before in my life, a standard mixer valve in the shower is virtually universal in the US, little has changed in the last 60+ years other than pressure compensating valves that will maintain a constant ratio regardless of pressure changes on hot or cold.
 


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