Author Topic: Electrical Appliance Brands You Would Never Buy Again  (Read 5421 times)

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Online tom66

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Re: Electrical Appliance Brands You Would Never Buy Again
« Reply #75 on: January 16, 2020, 09:41:29 am »
Rechargeable batteries aren't good for me, as I don't have enough use for them to get a statistical advantage.  NiCd cells die all too soon.  Any battery operated device always seems to run out when I need it.  And the conservation of energy applies; the wasted energy from all the recharging will add up.

Err... what?  I'm sure it costs a bit more energy to produce an entirely new battery and ship it half-way across the planet, oh and not forgetting the disposal of the old cell, but sure, the few Wh that a NiMH cell wastes during charging is important.
 

Offline Brutte

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Re: Electrical Appliance Brands You Would Never Buy Again
« Reply #76 on: January 16, 2020, 10:26:32 am »
A couple of months ago our washing machine died. (Miele, 13 years old).
(..)
So you made an assumption that durability == warranty length.(..)
He clearly only considered 10 years to be a lower bound for the product's life, set by the warranty.(..)
The repairmen tell me most modern appliances simply aren't built to be repaired (..)

Yes, this is also my observation - we get closer and closer to the:
Code: [Select]
durability == warranty lengthand there is no repair cost involved.

Now, if a company does not receive a feedback from the field about bearing failures, a natural consequence is that next version of their washing machine gets a thinner bearing. Of course this process does not take weeks but rather generations (10-20 years) in appliance business.

To be clear, unlike "Brands You Would Never Buy Again" negative opinions in here, my remark is not a rant. I am interested in the equations that govern the "mechanics of appliance industry" from one side and "consumer choices" from the other. The fact that Joe bought fridge made by W company for X$, which failed after Y years and estimated repair was Z$ is a mere consequence of the above "pair of equations". With his choice Joe created a demand for such XYZ product and this was the only reason why W designed and manufactured it. And because Z is so high for this particular fridge and Y is so short then Joe has just forced some repair shops to go bankrupt, but that was Joe's will.

There is nothing bad with that - it is called reality. And it seems to me it is not that difficult to understand why the (industry+consumer) pair is evolving in this direction.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2020, 02:56:34 pm by Brutte »
 

Offline bob91343

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Re: Electrical Appliance Brands You Would Never Buy Again
« Reply #77 on: January 16, 2020, 06:25:46 pm »
I wasn't comparing batteries with batteries.  I was comparing them with power line operation.  Unless the power cord is a major burden, I am good with using the grid to run my tools.  I don't even mind climbing the antenna tower with a cord dangling; not only is it no big deal but offers a way of lowering the tool without having to carry it down the ladder.  And it will never run down while I am up there.

Add to that the usually greater power (and often less weight) a line operated motor possesees and (for me at least) it's a no brainer.
 
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Offline Veteran68

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Re: Electrical Appliance Brands You Would Never Buy Again
« Reply #78 on: January 17, 2020, 12:49:35 am »
That data is quite old.  That was during their peak of drive failures after they were having issues from the tsunami in Thailand.  Yeah, they lowered their standards and let some drives out that shouldn't have been sold like that, but that was a long time ago.  The vast majority of those drives have long since been phased out because of obsolescence.  The Seagate drives are now much more reliable now.  It is worth noting that Western Digital is replacing much of their branded drives with HGST technology, which traditionally has the highest reliability.  Whether this will mean WD branded drives will become more reliable with the new tech or if they will just lower the HGST high water mark to that of WD standards remains to be seen.  The following is all Backblaze HDD data that has been released so far.

https://www.backblaze.com/b2/hard-drive-test-data.html


edit: It is also worth noting that HDD's follow a horseshoe curve for failure.  There are high rates of failure in the beginning, then a long period of low rates of failure, then they start climbing again because of EOL failures (if they aren't obsolete first).  So they all need to be replaced eventually anyway.
Well the graphic does say 2013-2014, while my experience dates back to the mid-80's. :)

And the link you posted, which I'd already seen but I felt the graphic I posted was a better visual depiction than a text table, still tell the story of higher Seagate failure rates through Q3 2019 than any other brand they measured:



My point was, my experience with Seagate drives since the 80's has formed my view of them. They may be super reliable now (although BB's stats say otherwise) but they burned me and my IT colleagues enough that we will never trust them. As I mentioned before, my hands-on experience with HDD's numbers well into the hundreds by now, and my current stock of Hitachi/HGST, Toshiba, and WD (which number in the dozens currently just in my office here at home) have served me incredibly well with an extremely low failure rate.
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Offline VK3DRB

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Re: Electrical Appliance Brands You Would Never Buy Again
« Reply #79 on: January 19, 2020, 06:42:34 am »
No hard disk was worse than IBM's 20GB Deskstar, (aka Deathstar). Almost 100% failure rate within 2 years. The real cause was IBM's lack of quality control where these were made.... contamination inside the drives assembled in Asia (the Philippines?) would damage the disk surfaces or damage the heads. IBM shafted all their Deathstar customers outside the USA, but those in the USA received a US $100 cheque as compensation. Having destroyed their reputation and with the IBM drive brand in tatters, IBM sold their drive business to Hitachi.

IBM also sold laptops, "Thinkpads" with Windows ME. More like Stinkpads. Dreadfully unreliable with terrible warranty service. A neighbour bought one for his daughter for school. It was repaired under warranty FOUR times in the first 12 months, and IBM would take several weeks to fix it each time. Pathetic when the poor kid needed it for school. Fed up with IBM, my neighbour sold his daughter's laptop it to a pawn broker for a few dollars as junk value and bought a reputable brand which was reliable. IBM violated the consumer laws here by selling a product unfit for purpose.

Since then, I have never bought anything IBM brand or Lenovo brand (who bought Thinkpad) and never will.
 

Online tom66

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Re: Electrical Appliance Brands You Would Never Buy Again
« Reply #80 on: January 19, 2020, 10:21:23 am »
I wasn't comparing batteries with batteries.  I was comparing them with power line operation.  Unless the power cord is a major burden, I am good with using the grid to run my tools.  I don't even mind climbing the antenna tower with a cord dangling; not only is it no big deal but offers a way of lowering the tool without having to carry it down the ladder.  And it will never run down while I am up there.

Add to that the usually greater power (and often less weight) a line operated motor possesees and (for me at least) it's a no brainer.
Ok - comment retracted!  I've found battery power tools to be quite useful but yes, there is no beating having several kW available on demand.  When the electrician recently came around to do some drilling, he was moaning that his battery-powered hammer drill was flat.  And so he had to wait 30 minutes to charge the pack up in his van while the engine idled (he didn't even have a mains charger).  I can figure why the gentleman wouldn't want *only* mains operated kit (sometimes power is not available on site) but surely, one of each battery and mains, makes more sense, so that you have some additional facility? Relying on just battery-powered tools when you are working all day seems a bit folly.
 

Online bingo600

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Re: Electrical Appliance Brands You Would Never Buy Again
« Reply #81 on: January 19, 2020, 11:14:43 am »
My point was, my experience with Seagate drives since the 80's has formed my view of them. They may be super reliable now (although BB's stats say otherwise) but they burned me and my IT colleagues enough that we will never trust them. As I mentioned before, my hands-on experience with HDD's numbers well into the hundreds by now, and my current stock of Hitachi/HGST, Toshiba, and WD (which number in the dozens currently just in my office here at home) have served me incredibly well with an extremely low failure rate.

+1 For NEVER Segate again.
I used to like Samsung (mech) disks , but after they were bought from Segate. Have had disks fail after 1..2 years , whereas "Original/Old" Samsungs have been running for 5+ years.
WD is also Segate  |O

I'm only buying Tosh or HGST mechanical disks today ... And Samsung EVO's for SSD.

/Bingo
 

Offline AndyC_772

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Re: Electrical Appliance Brands You Would Never Buy Again
« Reply #82 on: January 19, 2020, 12:06:26 pm »
I've found battery power tools to be quite useful but yes, there is no beating having several kW available on demand.

Mind you don't get left behind by technology. Unless you're talking about *really* heavy duty kit like concrete breakers, the current generation of battery powered professional tools is every bit as capable as its mains powered equivalent. I certainly can't think why I'd ever buy another mains powered drill, saw or similar tool.

I deeply regret not making the switch earlier. I bought an electric drill back when I was a student - mains powered and with a nice, healthy power rating. For a long time I figured I have a drill, so why buy a new one if it's still working?

Big mistake. The cordless drill I eventually bought a couple of years ago is incomparably better in terms of power, torque and controllability, and I've never even come close to running the battery down even after a full day of DIY.

Seriously... if you're still thinking battery == weak and underpowered, think again. I was shocked.

Quote
When the electrician recently came around to do some drilling, he was moaning that his battery-powered hammer drill was flat.

That's just incompetence. Something like a 5Ah battery pack will easily last all day unless he's literally drilling non-stop, and there's no excuse not to have a spare or two.

Offline dzseki

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Re: Electrical Appliance Brands You Would Never Buy Again
« Reply #83 on: January 19, 2020, 02:03:40 pm »

WD is also Segate  |O

I'm only buying Tosh or HGST mechanical disks today ... And Samsung EVO's for SSD.

/Bingo

Hm? Wikipedia tells otherwise:
WD bought HGST, but Seagate is a separate company.
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Online james_s

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Re: Electrical Appliance Brands You Would Never Buy Again
« Reply #84 on: January 19, 2020, 04:21:34 pm »
Aside from my worm drive circular saw the tools that I use are all battery powered. Indeed they are every bit as powerful as the mains powered variety, and with a couple of packs you can easily work all day. Modern brushless motors and lithium ion batteries are pretty amazing, you can easily have multi-kW cordless tools with more torque and better control than the corded variety.
 

Online Circlotron

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Re: Electrical Appliance Brands You Would Never Buy Again
« Reply #85 on: January 19, 2020, 09:14:22 pm »
Probably the biggest attraction of plug in power tool nowadays is the price.
 
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Online james_s

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Re: Electrical Appliance Brands You Would Never Buy Again
« Reply #86 on: January 19, 2020, 11:32:10 pm »
They are a bit cheaper, but not tremendously. The biggest attraction I see is that you don't need to deal with trying to replace obsolete battery packs 10 years later, although I did have the packs for my Swiss-made Bosch cordless drill re-celled a few years ago with good results.
 

Online SilverSolder

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Re: Electrical Appliance Brands You Would Never Buy Again
« Reply #87 on: January 20, 2020, 12:46:05 am »
Probably the biggest attraction of plug in power tool nowadays is the price.

To me, the attractions are:
1) Not having to deal with charging batteries, including the clutter of charging stations, extra batteries, etc.
2) Not having to deal with batteries losing their performance and finally becoming useless over a period of a few years,
3) Not having to deal with batteries losing their charge (tool losing performance) from heavy use of the tool during a working day.
4) Strong performance of mains power

The downsides are manageable, in comparison - it's called an extension cord, and is not hard to use (and quite tidy, if on a reel).
 

Online james_s

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Re: Electrical Appliance Brands You Would Never Buy Again
« Reply #88 on: January 20, 2020, 04:00:14 am »
I hate dragging cords around, they always seem to snag on things, or they're 2 feet shorter than I need and I have to go find another cord and chain it together, it's especially annoying when I'm up on a ladder. With the exception of very heavy duty stuff like large saws and stationary tools I wouldn't buy a corded tool again.
 

Offline Veteran68

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Re: Electrical Appliance Brands You Would Never Buy Again
« Reply #89 on: January 20, 2020, 10:53:28 pm »
Modern Li-Ion battery tools are miles better than the big bulky nicads of old. I've had zero battery problems out of my Dewalt 20v MAX tools. And the power is unbelievable. My Dewalt 20v hammer drill and impact driver will almost break your wrist. I can't tell you how many bolts I've sheared off by letting the impact driver go a bit too long.

Last year my old gas powered Poulan 16" chainsaw had given up the ghost when a tree fell in my backyard after a storm. On a whim, but with not an abundance of confidence, I bought an 80v Li-Ion battery powered 18" chainsaw from Lowes. I was amazed. I was able to buck a 30' 30" diameter red oak tree (i.e. hardwood) 2/3 of the way on a single charge (about 25-30 minutes of cutting). Then a full recharge took only 30 minutes for me to finish the job. No gas & oil to deal with, and it was much quieter than a 2-stroke gas saw too.

I will never deal with cords, mains, or gas & oil again if I can help it. I am 100% sold on modern battery powered technology for doing real work.
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Online SilverSolder

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Re: Electrical Appliance Brands You Would Never Buy Again
« Reply #90 on: January 20, 2020, 11:25:11 pm »
Modern Li-Ion battery tools are miles better than the big bulky nicads of old. I've had zero battery problems out of my Dewalt 20v MAX tools. And the power is unbelievable. My Dewalt 20v hammer drill and impact driver will almost break your wrist. I can't tell you how many bolts I've sheared off by letting the impact driver go a bit too long.

Last year my old gas powered Poulan 16" chainsaw had given up the ghost when a tree fell in my backyard after a storm. On a whim, but with not an abundance of confidence, I bought an 80v Li-Ion battery powered 18" chainsaw from Lowes. I was amazed. I was able to buck a 30' 30" diameter red oak tree (i.e. hardwood) 2/3 of the way on a single charge (about 25-30 minutes of cutting). Then a full recharge took only 30 minutes for me to finish the job. No gas & oil to deal with, and it was much quieter than a 2-stroke gas saw too.

I will never deal with cords, mains, or gas & oil again if I can help it. I am 100% sold on modern battery powered technology for doing real work.

If you compare the 2 stroke chainsaw with the electric unit in, say, 5 years,  chances are the battery will be significantly weaker, whereas the gas engine will be as strong as the day it was made.  Then try 10 years, 20 years, etc.

Gas engines are not maintenance free, of course.  You have to change the oil (4 stroke engines naturally), and remember to add marine grade stabilizer to the gas to prevent it going bad when the equipment sits unused for long periods.   But replacing failing batteries in electric tools every few years shouldn't be considered 'maintenance free' either...   it is, in fact, very expensive maintenance and there isn't much you can do to avoid it.

Over 20 years, the cost of ownership of a large number of battery tools is high.  For these reasons, everything is gas or mains electric powered in my garage today. 

I used to have a whole collection of battery powered tools, but that was then, and this is now...  these days, every tool I reach for starts instantly and works at full force, no worries mate!

« Last Edit: January 20, 2020, 11:39:04 pm by SilverSolder »
 

Online james_s

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Re: Electrical Appliance Brands You Would Never Buy Again
« Reply #91 on: January 20, 2020, 11:46:13 pm »
If it's anything like my experience with small 2 stroke motors there is also the cost in time (and parts like gaskets, primer bulbs, hoses, etc) to take apart the carburetor and mess with it every time I end up using the thing and forget to flush it out. Spark plug, points (in older stuff), recoil starter, reed valves, all things I have had to mess with at one point or another. Then there is acquiring and storing fuel and oil, disposing of stale fuel, cleaning up spilled/leaked fuel, and the environmental and noise pollution of small 2 stroke motors. They have their place, I do love classic 2-stroke outboard motors but for small tools like string trimmers and blowers, even my lawnmower (small yard) I have replaced mine with electric and got rid of the gas ones years ago. For heavy duty chainsaws I don't think there are electric options yet but I don't have or need one of those personally.

Batteries are cheap, ~$50 or so, lasts at least a couple years, then replace it when it starts to get worn. They're only getting cheaper and more powerful. The electric tools are quiet and clean, no stinky exhaust or messy fuel, no tinkering, just slap in a fresh battery and go. I can't see myself ever buying another gas powered tool again other than maybe a classic fixer-upper if I'm feeling nostalgic. I've been using the same cordless drill now for over 15 years, I had the original battery packs re-celled about 5 years ago and those are still going strong. In another 5 years I'll probably have them re-celled again.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2020, 11:48:14 pm by james_s »
 

Online SilverSolder

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Re: Electrical Appliance Brands You Would Never Buy Again
« Reply #92 on: January 21, 2020, 12:09:47 am »
Yeah, a lot of my gas powered stuff is "fixer upper" nostalgia items.  Nothing with points and condensers though! 

E.g. re-engined 1980's snow blower:



When I buy gas, I buy a 5 gallon can and add the stabilizer straight into the can at that point.  I've not had problems with gummed up carbs for the last 10 years, since I started doing that.

 

Online bingo600

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Re: Electrical Appliance Brands You Would Never Buy Again
« Reply #93 on: January 25, 2020, 06:14:23 am »

WD is also Segate  |O

I'm only buying Tosh or HGST mechanical disks today ... And Samsung EVO's for SSD.

/Bingo

Hm? Wikipedia tells otherwise:
WD bought HGST, but Seagate is a separate company.

Hmm

Maybe i misunderstood this (Would be a nice info)
https://www.storagenewsletter.com/2014/04/01/seagate-acquires-wd-for-16-billion-new-company-named-seawest/

/Bingo
 

Online rdl

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Re: Electrical Appliance Brands You Would Never Buy Again
« Reply #94 on: January 25, 2020, 06:19:37 pm »
That was 5 years ago and "Seawest" still does not exist. Check the date of the article.

April 1st
 

Offline SeanB

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Re: Electrical Appliance Brands You Would Never Buy Again
« Reply #95 on: January 25, 2020, 06:48:44 pm »
I have some nice cordless electric drills, where the original NiCd batteries died, and I was not going to replace them with the same cells again, as they all die fast in there, because the chargers tend to cook the cells to get a fast charge.  So now I have 2 sort of cordless drills, with a short cord, that connects them to a 7Ah SLA battery, that is charged externally when required. So I have drills that works almost everywhere, but hav a much longer run time per charge over the original 1.2Ah battery pack, and batteries are a lot cheaper as well. Not as convenient, but they do go up ladders, and work well there with a little thought.
 
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Online SilverSolder

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Re: Electrical Appliance Brands You Would Never Buy Again
« Reply #96 on: January 25, 2020, 09:44:01 pm »
I have some nice cordless electric drills, where the original NiCd batteries died, and I was not going to replace them with the same cells again, as they all die fast in there, because the chargers tend to cook the cells to get a fast charge.  So now I have 2 sort of cordless drills, with a short cord, that connects them to a 7Ah SLA battery, that is charged externally when required. So I have drills that works almost everywhere, but hav a much longer run time per charge over the original 1.2Ah battery pack, and batteries are a lot cheaper as well. Not as convenient, but they do go up ladders, and work well there with a little thought.

Super cool idea, I'm going to try that with the pile of dead battery tools that I have here...
 
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Offline VK3DRB

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Re: Electrical Appliance Brands You Would Never Buy Again
« Reply #97 on: January 26, 2020, 10:19:09 am »
...Last year my old gas powered Poulan 16" chainsaw had given up the ghost when a tree fell in my backyard after a storm...

I also own a 16" Poulan chainsaw. I am not sure they were ever sold in Australia, but I bought a Poulan 2150 from a Home Depot on a super special in New York, just hours before leaving the US about 25 years ago. It was risk buying it due to getting pare parts but it was about 1/5 of the price of anything similar here. Very happy with the chainsaw which has done a lot of work. A common issue with the Poulans is the fuel primer bulb and the plastic fuel line perish. Replacing these parts is easy enough and cheap from eBay. Other than that, they are simple enough, reliable and hard working. Battery chainsaws would never last the distance as a petrol driven one; and battery packs would never last as long as my Poulan. I would buy Poulan again.

Makita blowers - expensive and and mine lasted 15 years before the magneto failed. The replacement part was far too expensive, so I replaced the Makita with an Echo which is what the professional gardeners use - worth every cent. On the the other hand I have a Makita circular saw I built a large steel framed house with in 1987. The Makita is still strong 33 years later.

The best lawn mowers are Honda. Professional lawn mowing contractors use this brand above all others due to their reputation of performance and reliability. Too expensive for me though, I bought the second best - a Rover mower with a 4-stroke Briggs and Statton engine. Still going well after 21 years of lawn mowing.
 

Online SilverSolder

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Re: Electrical Appliance Brands You Would Never Buy Again
« Reply #98 on: January 26, 2020, 01:01:04 pm »
...Last year my old gas powered Poulan 16" chainsaw had given up the ghost when a tree fell in my backyard after a storm...

I also own a 16" Poulan chainsaw. I am not sure they were ever sold in Australia, but I bought a Poulan 2150 from a Home Depot on a super special in New York, just hours before leaving the US about 25 years ago. It was risk buying it due to getting pare parts but it was about 1/5 of the price of anything similar here. Very happy with the chainsaw which has done a lot of work. A common issue with the Poulans is the fuel primer bulb and the plastic fuel line perish. Replacing these parts is easy enough and cheap from eBay. Other than that, they are simple enough, reliable and hard working. Battery chainsaws would never last the distance as a petrol driven one; and battery packs would never last as long as my Poulan. I would buy Poulan again.

Makita blowers - expensive and and mine lasted 15 years before the magneto failed. The replacement part was far too expensive, so I replaced the Makita with an Echo which is what the professional gardeners use - worth every cent. On the the other hand I have a Makita circular saw I built a large steel framed house with in 1987. The Makita is still strong 33 years later.

The best lawn mowers are Honda. Professional lawn mowing contractors use this brand above all others due to their reputation of performance and reliability. Too expensive for me though, I bought the second best - a Rover mower with a 4-stroke Briggs and Statton engine. Still going well after 21 years of lawn mowing.

The pros use a lot of Stihl brand garden tools in the US.  Now that you mention it, I have never seen a pro gardening crew use electric/battery equipment...  it's gasoline all the way with those guys.   Mowers, strimmers, blowers, ...   all gas powered.  Obviously they can't be dealing with recharging etc. when they have a busy day of work...
 

Online james_s

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Re: Electrical Appliance Brands You Would Never Buy Again
« Reply #99 on: January 26, 2020, 05:49:25 pm »
Professional gardeners work all day long and travel from location to location so charging would be more of a challenge. There's also I'm sure a cultural thing, they use the tools they use because those are the tools they all use.

The only one that ever really bothers me are gas powered leaf blowers, I truly wish they would be banned. I'm not sure someone living in an area where they are not common can understand how obnoxious it is to live with a cacophony of screaming 2-stroke engines all day long all over the neighborhood blowing leaves from one place to another. It has gotten totally out of hand and during certain times of the year it's impossible to have anything resembling peace and quiet. We even have a neighbor near our little cabin who built a big fancy house out there with a perfectly manicured suburban lawn out in the woods amongst the vacation cabins. He'll be out there for several hours on a Saturday blowing leaves around making an obnoxious racket and then 10 minutes after he finally goes inside the wind gusts and there are leaves all over again. I loathe gas leaf blowers, one of the dumbest and most obnoxious inventions ever made.
 


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