Author Topic: Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten entire tech ecosystems  (Read 2985 times)

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Offline xrunnerTopic starter

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Also they have a link in the article to Mike's Electric Stuff YT channel who is a member here

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Resting on its laurels is costing the industry its hardies
The Register
Mon 18 Jul 2022

Opinion Intel has produced some unbelievable graphs in its time: projected Itanium market share, next node power consumption, multicore performance boosts.

The graph the company showed at the latest VLSI Symposium, however, was a real shocker.

While computer science course take-up had gone up by over 90 percent in the past 50 years, electrical engineering (EE) had declined by the same amount. The electronics graduate has become rarer than an Intel-based smartphone.

That part of the technology industry which makes actual things has always been divided between hardies and softies, soldering iron versus compiler, oscilloscope versus debugger. But the balance is lost. Something is very wrong at the heart of our technology creation supply chain. Where have all the hardies gone?

Engineering degree courses are a lot of work across a lot of disciplines, with electronic engineering being particularly diverse. The theoretical side covers signal, information, semiconductor devices, optical and electromagnetic theory, so your math better be good. There's any amount of building-block knowledge needed, analogue and digital, across the spectrum from millimetric RF to high-energy power engineering. And then you have to know how to apply it all to real-world problems.

This isn't the sort of course you opt to do because you can't think of anything better. You have to want to do it, you have to think you can do it, and do it well enough to make it your career. For that, you need prior exposure. You need to have caught the taste. And to make it your life, there has to be a lot of high-status, high-wage, high-interest jobs to do at the end.

For most of the history of electronics, there was a clear on-ramp for this, and an industry that didn't need to sell itself because it was inherently cool for geeks. Look at the biographies of the great names in electronics, such as Intel co-founder Robert Noyce or the father of the information age Claude Shannon, and you find them as teenage geeks pulling apart, then rebuilding, then designing radios and guitar amplifiers. The post-war generation tore down military surplus gear to teach themselves how it worked and mine components to build their own inventions.

This was practical magic, and you could start your apprenticeship by taking the back off a broken wireless. If you had the urge, it was easy to ignite the fascination. Then came the pull of working on the front line of the Cold War, the space age, the era of technological innovation. The industry had its supply of fresh creativity guaranteed.

This remained broadly true until the turn of the 21st century. A reasonably bright kid would realize that the family CRT television was in fact a particle accelerator with its own multi-kilovolt high-voltage generator, plus any amount of repurposable bits and pieces. You can have a lot of fun with that. There were old analog gadgets all over the place. You could peer inside Granny's radio and follow the signal path, component by component. That's all gone now.

    Even robots have the right to learn from open source
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By one measure we're surrounded by more electronics in our homes than entire nations had years back. Your granny's radio had maybe 10 transistors; a smart speaker, billions. But it's a computer, like your flat-screen television is a computer, like your phone and your audio system and even your light bulbs are computers. The electronics have sunk out of sight, beneath thick alluvial layers of software, and it will do nothing without that software. Any budding geek will expend their youthful vigor on that software first, because it's where the animating genius of technology now resides. We have literally cut ourselves off from a primary wellspring of fascination.

It's not all bad news. Maker culture is alive and well and access to knowledge has never been easier. You don't have to go to a library to get out books on electronic theory or find a fascinating gadget to eviscerate. It's all on YouTube. Want to take apart a laser guidance system for an RAF Tornado's bombs? Mike's Electric Stuff has you covered. But the maker culture revolves around embedded processors and high-level concepts: you can build radios at home now that cost a few pounds and outperform the state-of-the-art of a few years back, but they're software defined.

If electronics are invisible at the start of a young engineer's life, they're invisible in the careers they may contemplate. In the 20th century, not only were consumer electronics full of differentiated analog desirables, aerospace, the military, and industry were too. Now everything is a screen with a UI. You still need a lot of specialized hardware, but it's vanished deep into the background. No wonder everyone who once had the itch to solder now gets ensnared by software.

Is it possible for electronics to regain its status as a primary inspiration for young technical minds? Not without a lot of work from the industry that needs those minds. The pipeline it once took as the natural order has broken. To reach new talent, the magic must be re-exposed. What goes on in chip fabs, design bureaus, and product R&D is just as important – and as magical – as ever.

Selling that message in a world designed by geeks to distract geeks is going to be hard. But we have hero brands, and hero space missions, and temples where we conjure machines, atom by atom. If the industry can't look at all the incredible things it does and find a way to capture imaginations, it deserves every last heartbreaking graph of doom. ®

[url]https://www.theregister.com/2022/07/18/electrical_engineers_extinction/[/url]
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Online Benta

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As an opinion article, it's good. I cen nod to a lot of things when I see the "Smombies" walking around.
But there's always an upside: the students choosing analog or power or sensor or other technology corners are going to earn a lot of money if they play it smart.
 
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Offline nctnico

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If you pay peanuts, you'll get monkeys. One of my mentors once told me that being an EE is a sure way to make very little money. He is right. In the technology sector, electronics engineering is extremely underpaid. You can only make a decent living if you are extremely good at it. It is almost like trying to have an acting career.

One of the problems I see is that putting an electronics engineer behind a desk also sets the employer back about $100k in various pieces of test equipment that devaluate at an insane rate. That money eats into the salary budget to pay the engineer!

The only country I know off that is creating a steady stream of EEs is China.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2022, 10:06:04 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 
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Online bdunham7

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You can only make a decent living if you are extremely good at it. It is almost like trying to have an acting career.

I suspect that like acting, the correlation between 'extremely good' and making good money isn't all that close.  Luck, politics, managing skills and even ruthlessness are key. 
A 3.5 digit 4.5 digit 5 digit 5.5 digit 6.5 digit 7.5 digit DMM is good enough for most people.
 
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Online Benta

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One of my mentors once told me that being an EE is a sure way to make very little money. He is right. In the technology sector, electronics engineering is extremely underpaid.
IMO, that's mostly a personality problem of EEs (I suffered from it myself). Salary negotiations are a nightmare for EEs, where idiots get through much better.
Intelligent people always have some self-doubt. Idiots don't, they think they're wonderful (aka "Dunning-Kruger").
EEs, get a training on negotiating skills! Pay for it yourself. It pays in the end.
 
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Offline Circlotron

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At least we have people in universities doing Gender Studies.
They will save us all.
 
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Offline aeberbach

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From what I see doing software pays much more than anything physical. And the dumber the programming gets, the more money you make. Compare for example embedded C vs. iOS salaries.
Software guy studying B.Eng.
 

Offline bd139

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I’m a qualified EE but I don’t do it any more. The job sucked. The benefits sucked. The money sucked. The market sucked. I have no sympathy for the current situation. It was self inflicted.

I woke up one day realised this was bullshit, quit and wangled a job at a software start up. I had a 4x salary jump, an air con office in the city and was (no joke) knee deep in women’s underwear and whisky within a month  :-DD

Never looked back. I love the work but the industry killed it.
 
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Offline bd139

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From what I see doing software pays much more than anything physical. And the dumber the programming gets, the more money you make. Compare for example embedded C vs. iOS salaries.

I think the problem is they’re both dumb in different ways. However one is seen as a revenue stream and the other is seen as an incidental operating cost for delivery.

Always look for things with value added revenue. Hence why I work in fintech on complete bollocks that no one cares about or understands but makes money.
 

Offline Circlotron

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From what I see doing software pays much more than anything physical. And the dumber the programming gets, the more money you make. Compare for example embedded C vs. iOS salaries.

I think the problem is they’re both dumb in different ways. However one is seen as a revenue stream and the other is seen as an incidental operating cost for delivery.
Maybe comparable  to the motor car industry with it's body stylists and the engineers that create the drive train and all the other underpinnings. So much of the buying public pay more attention to the former, with the latter being considered an expense that must be tolerated.
 

Online snarkysparky

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Analog electronics is relegated to smaller and smaller portions of the hardware by pin count so to speak.  After digitization the math and software guys do the rest.   

Learn the math and software!!!

 

Offline AndyC_772

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It's an amusing irony that it's Intel highlighting this issue and complaining about it; they're as complicit as anyone in the trend for consumer electronics to become less and less accessible to the curious with each passing year.

When I was in my teenage years, deciding upon a career path, it was the age of the 'proper' home computer - endlessly adaptable, expandable, upgradable and modifiable by anyone with a soldering iron and the will to do something cool. My first non-trivial project was a device to record and play digital (sampled) audio on a BBC micro; it taught me about address and data buses, multiplexing, decoding, signal integrity, power supplies, device drivers, interrupt handling, and the sheer joy of showing off something I'd created from scratch.

Today's young people simply don't have that entry point into the profession. The modern PC is kind-of-sort-of-open-ish in theory, but everything interesting is integrated into a couple of ICs, and just try getting hold of the real, complete, *full* data sheets for those.

Looking at you squarely in the eyes without even the tiniest hint of sympathy, Intel. While you're at it, you could start supplying distributors with FPGAs again.
 
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Offline AndyBeez

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At least we have people in universities doing Gender Studies.
They will save us all.
Not forgetting the most popular science subject studied in UK universities; sport science.
 
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Offline Whales

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It's an amusing irony that it's Intel highlighting this issue and complaining about it; they're as complicit as anyone in the trend for consumer electronics to become less and less accessible to the curious with each passing year.

Indeed.  Companies want their products to be magic to users, not comprehensible technology.  This bites them in the arse much later on.
 
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Offline madires

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Analog electronics is relegated to smaller and smaller portions of the hardware by pin count so to speak.  After digitization the math and software guys do the rest.   

That would imply more bloatware. :scared:
 

Offline madires

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When I was in my teenage years, deciding upon a career path, it was the age of the 'proper' home computer - endlessly adaptable, expandable, upgradable and modifiable by anyone with a soldering iron and the will to do something cool. My first non-trivial project was a device to record and play digital (sampled) audio on a BBC micro; it taught me about address and data buses, multiplexing, decoding, signal integrity, power supplies, device drivers, interrupt handling, and the sheer joy of showing off something I'd created from scratch.

It's not gone! Today's entry point is an Arduino, RasPi or any other similar platform. They are the current equivalent of yesteryear's 8-bit home computer.
 
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Offline xrunnerTopic starter

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Analog electronics is relegated to smaller and smaller portions of the hardware by pin count so to speak.  After digitization the math and software guys do the rest.   

Learn the math and software!!!

That's the way ham transceivers are going. All SDR (software defined radio). Except for a few parts at the front end such as an RF amp or attenuator and band filters, and the final PA and filtering, the whole thing is a computer / processor. No more repairing of that part for most hams. It's all programming and math filtering once the RF is digitized. A black box.
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Offline PKTKS

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When I was in my teenage years, deciding upon a career path, it was the age of the 'proper' home computer - endlessly adaptable, expandable, upgradable and modifiable by anyone with a soldering iron and the will to do something cool. My first non-trivial project was a device to record and play digital (sampled) audio on a BBC micro; it taught me about address and data buses, multiplexing, decoding, signal integrity, power supplies, device drivers, interrupt handling, and the sheer joy of showing off something I'd created from scratch.

It's not gone! Today's entry point is an Arduino, RasPi or any other similar platform. They are the current equivalent of yesteryear's 8-bit home computer.


Just google for  China robotics park projections...

They will more than double their automated park in next decade...

Not by chance they already invested in an army of competent engineers that are not trainee idiots pledging for stupid positions..

Next decades will speak per si with Chinese industry just smashing the pathetic western markets..

Paul


and BTW   use the chance to google their military grade asset growth in robotics cybernetics and related warfare...   western  corporations of profiteers is about to be slammed
« Last Edit: July 19, 2022, 10:59:28 am by PKTKS »
 

Offline abquke

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I debate off and on about not renewing my subscription to IEEE Spectrum because more often than not it's AI sales pitch gobblygook.

EEs are like fabs in that it takes a lot of time from starting construction to productive output. Not favorable in a bubble-to-bubble economy.
 
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Offline Gribo

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At least we have people in universities doing Gender Studies.
They will save us all.
Not forgetting the most popular science subject studied in UK universities; sport science.
I thought it was comparative anatomy...
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Offline tom66

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At present, the shortage of skilled/qualified programmers has driven salaries sky high in some areas, for instance Facebook pays some of their engineers up to $250k (with the penalty that you have to life and work in SF to get that salary.) 

Will this shortage continue to drive engineering salaries up or will it lead to a stagnation because the interesting tech doesn't get developed to pay for those salaries?

Almost everyone I speak to in engineering recruitment says how hard it is to find highly skilled engineers.  Recently I saw a job ad for an FPGA engineer (contract) at £80ph - the penalty being no remote work all on site in England - but that's not badly paid at all (yearly salary equivalent would be £144k though I guess it depends on contract extensions etc.)
 

Offline MrMobodies

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Not forgetting the most popular science subject studied in UK universities; sport science.

Over ten years ago at a local college where I use to live they were doing things like "nail technician", "varnish technician" and "sandwich technician". There was a class teaching people in their 20's and 30's how to read and write, spell out the names of the months, learning how to make a cup of tea and coffee and in their marketing materials it boasted something completely different which was more like lie so I was enrolled by a provider by mistake and the way I was treated before I left on the starting of that day, "So you THINK! you can read and write but you CAN'T!", I said "excuse me, tell me, what is this in front of you? If I couldn't write I would be bringing in a fountain pen and copying down those sentences of joined up writing quickly in seconds. Whilst the others take a minute struggling to write their own name so I took that as an insult." I left to make a complaint about the claims in the brochure then they said,  "it was a mistake and we are sorry", they don't do none of the things and "they will have a "word" with the marketing team.

I found something there just called "security". So I asked what access control stuff do you do, I mentioned names of a few including systems and burglar alarms. They had no idea of what I was talking about. They told me that it was qualification to become a bouncer pubs and nightclubs.

I had a meeting with the director. He told he did electrical engineering in the 80's at this same place to fix and service televisions and radios and in fact one the first things he did there. He said to me that people are not interested in it anymore, if a television breaks down they find it cheaper to go to shopping, pick up a new television and bin the old set. I was quoted £14,000 for an electrical engineering course which would be 1:1 but  could include other people later on if they decided to advertise it.

I went to another place, they did programming classes in Java, the teacher apparently left and the had these teaching assistants run it. Before I knew this they subjected me to this stupid confusing test in their computer suite. It was basic stuff like adding up money. With this testing software the units, pounds and pence were not declared £ or P at all. It found it ambiguous. the person running it said they were not suppose to help as it was a test and I should know already. I added the units in and I failed everything. The person running it said it had nothing to do with them as they where there just print out the scores. I went back to the hall and complained about the testing software, they said nothing about it but wrote an equation down and said "do this". I finished it and they couldn't understand how I got that right but failed their test. I said I told you the problems with it. Anyway then I was told that their teacher left all they were were teaching assistants with no experience in computing and they go by a teaching guide. I asked if you inexperienced with no understand of what you are doing why are you here and running this course? No answer to that. I was furious waste of my time.

There was Cisco class there too that the department set up a meeting to discuss my needs and it was a con, the person running that wanted £3000. If I failed I would have to pay that again and £800 for every test. He said he can't help me with my needs and condition and they have no duty of care as it was private company within a company contracted private by the college so it was not part of the college of what it looked it. They don't have dedicate room, no hardware or testing as he said they do it "academically" where I "self study".  I said that is ridiculous and extortion,  I could do this cheaper if I wanted by signing up to Cisco if I didn't need the help. So I go there just to pay you all this money to do absolutely nothing and he sounded very blunt after that is all he had to offer. I overhead him reporting back that "it was too challenging" for me. I should have gone in start an argument. The last I heard from a friend who went there, they did a geography course, It was all shown on Powerpoint through a projector and this is where it gets better, during the exam all the answers were on the back of the test papers and everybody passed.

I over heard of a conversation between an engineer and a pat tester about 5 years ago, the pat tester said he was about to retire and this electrical engineer replied, "Yes they are either retiring or dying and there are not many people to replace us. The accountants put a stop all this in the 80's when they decided they didn't need anymore engineers and didn't want spend money on training and apprenticeships to save them money."

I found that a bit strange believing that there will always be jobs for electrical and pat testing considering the amount of houses in the UK being built at the moment especially in over crowded areas.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2022, 06:45:04 pm by MrMobodies »
 
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Offline cellularmitosis

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From what I see doing software pays much more than anything physical. And the dumber the programming gets, the more money you make. Compare for example embedded C vs. iOS salaries.

I understand the point you are trying to make, but you chose a poor example.  I rarely deal with threads, and never deal with asynchronous programming with embedded C.
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