Electrical Registration

[Stiege]

Hey everyone,

I'm sure this would have been raised a few times in the past. I'm a New Zealand electronic engineer (in one more year after I graduate from University) however I'm having a rough time understanding the current legislation around the profession.

From my understanding, even though the first thing a student learns at university is pretty much how to rectify AC and regulate it for a power supply; legislation prevents any such power supply from being plugged into the wall (without an electricians say so). Also, current legislation prevents an electronic engineer from repairing an electrical appliance for profit.

I'm also an amateur radio enthusiast ZL3ALX and have been into electronics since before I came to university, so I do these things anyway. But is it just me or are these rules ridiculous? Is it the same in Aussie?

[AlfBaz]

I'm fairly certain its the same here.
Even an electrician who has completed his apprenticeship and is a tradesman isn't allowed to work on mains powered equipment unsupervised until he gets an electrical license and even then isn't allowed to do this for money until he gets a contractors license

[Stiege]

Yeah and I agree that makes sense - until you sit the exams regarding the regulations you should not be able to. However as an electronic engineer I believe I should be able to sit those exams, currently i will never be able to. That doesn't make a lot of sense that I can design a circuit to plug into mains, submit it for standards testing, it passes eventually, but if it ever comes back I have to say "no I can't fix that as a professional".

[c4757p]

Personally I think the required education, testing and licensing to perform mains work should be part of an EE curriculum. It's absolutely ridiculous that the bloody engineers who design the stuff can't plug it in without a freaking electrician to check it and connect up a cord. It's not like an aeronautical engineer designing an airplane - of course he should have to have separate licenses before he can fly it. You're just plugging in a cord, the worst that will happen if something goes wrong is a tripped goddamn circuit breaker.....  (Or a fire, but if that's an issue let's just require match, candle and stove licenses while we're at it...)

I consider myself fortunate to live in the wonderful backwater hick town of Big Flats, New York, where there's no electrician licensing to speak of. I can do all the electrical stuff I want as long as it's to code. (IIRC the town requires it to be inspected after it's done, as if anybody but the professionals actually does that...) The insurance people might have something different to say about that if asked, but they don't come around looking for proof of professional electrical service...

A bad side effect of this is that there are some awful hacks of "electricians" running around.  I've seen some downright frightening stuff - my "to-do" list currently includes "rewire entire house before we die in an electrical fire". I think I like the idea of requiring a license for work done for other people.

[Stiege]

Personally I think the required education, testing and licensing to perform mains work should be part of an EE curriculum. It's absolutely ridiculous that the bloody engineers who design the stuff can't plug it in without a freaking electrician to check it and connect up a cord. It's not like an aeronautical engineer designing an airplane - of course he should have to have separate licenses before he can fly it. You're just plugging in a cord, the worst that will happen if something goes wrong is a tripped goddamn circuit breaker.....  (Or a fire, but if that's an issue let's just require match, candle and stove licenses while we're at it...)

I consider myself fortunate to live in the wonderful backwater hick town of Big Flats, New York, where there's no electrician licensing to speak of. I can do all the electrical stuff I want as long as it's to code. (IIRC the town requires it to be inspected after it's done, as if anybody but the professionals actually does that...) The insurance people might have something different to say about that if asked, but they don't come around looking for proof of professional electrical service...

A bad side effect of this is that there are some awful hacks of "electricians" running around.  I've seen some downright frightening stuff - my "to-do" list currently includes "rewire entire house before we die in an electrical fire". I think I like the idea of requiring a license for work done for other people.

Thank you so much, I'm not crazy!

[c4757p]

My opinion is that the curriculum is faulty if it doesn't include that stuff. It's still electrical. It's like doctors who can't communicate with patients for shit - the nurses have to learn those skills, so you should too! You should be above them in the "got to that level and then got better" way, not the "MBA with no engineering experience managing a bunch of engineers" way. The lower stuff is still relevant. An electrical engineer who can't attach a cord is like an automotive engineer who can't change oil - bloody embarrassing if you ask me.

Even in places like here where it would not be directly useful to get a license as part of a school course (because NYS doesn't have licensing, many cities do it themselves, so if you get a license in e.g. Ithaca, you can't practice an hour down the road in Binghamton), the experience of getting it prepares you to do it somewhere else.

_{Mini-rant: Why one city can't get their heads out of their asses and accept licenses from neighboring cities is beyond me.}

[Stiege]

My opinion is that the curriculum is faulty if it doesn't include that stuff. It's still electrical. It's like doctors who can't communicate with patients for shit - the nurses have to learn those skills, so you should too! You should be above them in the "got to that level and then got better" way, not the "MBA with no engineering experience managing a bunch of engineers" way. The lower stuff is still relevant. An electrical engineer who can't attach a cord is like an automotive engineer who can't change oil - bloody embarrassing if you ask me.

Even in places like here where it would not be directly useful to get a license as part of a school course (because NYS doesn't have licensing, many cities do it themselves, so if you get a license in e.g. Ithaca, you can't practice an hour down the road in Binghamton), the experience of getting it prepares you to do it somewhere else.

Yeah, I think fighting ignorance is part of the problem. From what I can see the people who run the registration in NZ are not university graduates. No doubt they have plenty of experience and skill at doing electrical work however, but I don't see how they can look over my qualification as an engineer and say "no this isn't enough to be able to sit a regulatory exam". Meanwhile if I'd done a tech course as they did, it would be okay.

It's the same stuff that has been annoying me for a long time: "I chose to go to tech because it's more practical than university". I acknowledge that tech is great and worthwhile, but don't blow out my candle to make yours shine brighter. University takes longer, is harder and you have a bigger student loan by the end of it for a reason. I just think the legislation behind electricity is ridiculous - no doubt because so many find electronics/electricity difficult to grasp therefore how can you write good laws protecting people from the dangers of it.

[c4757p]

so many find electronics/electricity difficult to grasp therefore how can you write good laws protecting people from the dangers of it.

Therein lies the problem. You'd have to be a complete dickhead to try writing a law (a law!) about something you aren't educated about, and yet they do it all the damn time. Before you take away my right to connect wires together in my own house or place of business you damn well should be assembling panels of experts and getting their take on the matter. Real experts, not just the ones you hope will contribute to your campaign. And not just the regulatory-body "short out a AA battery and the universe will explode" types, the people who will actually be affected by this. For a country that loves to rail on "Rights! Rights! Rights!" we sure do like to take them away when they scare us.

[mzacharias]

Nowadays anybody with access to the internet thinks they can fix stuff themselves, and that every problem is caused by bad caps.

This is so prevalent that customers are often genuinely surprised when they are told something else is wrong with their stuff.

In the U.S. as a general rule no license is required to work on consumer mains connected equipment. (Some specific areas might have local regs, not sure of that.)

I do see some examples of extreme stupidity, but not nearly so many as you  might expect.

[Ferroto]

so many find electronics/electricity difficult to grasp therefore how can you write good laws protecting people from the dangers of it.

Therein lies the problem. You'd have to be a complete dickhead to try writing a law (a law!) about something you aren't educated about, and yet they do it all the damn time. Before you take away my right to connect wires together in my own house or place of business you damn well should be assembling panels of experts and getting their take on the matter. Real experts, not just the ones you hope will contribute to your campaign. And not just the regulatory-body "short out a AA battery and the universe will explode" types, the people who will actually be affected by this. For a country that loves to rail on "Rights! Rights! Rights!" we sure do like to take them away when they scare us.

These types of laws are usually pushed through by union jackboots and are less about safety and more about preventing someone more qualified then them say an EE from taking their jobs when the EE jobs go to India. I'm serious about this why should an EE who is qualified to design a piece of electronics need a licence before repairing said electronics.

[cwalex]

I know this is kind of off topic but I thought that if you live in NZ you can take a short course on house wiring and then you are allowed to do your own house wiring. In Australia you are not even allowed to replace a light fitting! some friends of mine are sparkies and I have seen the books of regulations they have to follow and the books are updated regularly with changing regs. They are pretty big books so they really have to keep up to date to avoid prosecution due to doing work that doesn't meet current regs so there is a lot more involved than just running wires etc.

It is definitely ridiculous if you can't perform repair work on a device you designed!

[Stiege]

I know this is kind of off topic but I thought that if you live in NZ you can take a short course on house wiring and then you are allowed to do your own house wiring. In Australia you are not even allowed to replace a light fitting! some friends of mine are sparkies and I have seen the books of regulations they have to follow and the books are updated regularly with changing regs. They are pretty big books so they really have to keep up to date to avoid prosecution due to doing work that doesn't meet current regs so there is a lot more involved than just running wires etc.

It is definitely ridiculous if you can't perform repair work on a device you designed!

Well you're almost right, you can do all the wiring on your home without any course actually, but you then have to hire an electrician to connect it. This way electricians can still make lots of money by doing even less work.

[SteveH]

Stiege, you need to talk to a good registered, licenced electrical contractor. He/she will explain the realities of our industry and why they would want alot of money before signing off the certificate of compliance, thereby putting their licence and possibly their livelihood on the line for your workmanship.
Regards,
Steve.

[Stiege]

Stiege, you need to talk to a good registered, licenced electrical contractor. He/she will explain the realities of our industry and why they would want alot of money before signing off the certificate of compliance, thereby putting their licence and possibly their livelihood on the line for your workmanship.
Regards,
Steve.

I apologise for that comment. That's a separate issue from what I'm talking about anyway - I just want to be able to sit a regulatory exam and register for myself. I have nothing against electricians.

[HackedFridgeMagnet]

I dont think you necessarily need a sparkies licence to manufacture/repair stuff that plugs into mains. The sparkie's licences is generally about fixed wiring.

I only know the Australian side, but it should be similar in NZ.
The rules on appliances are in a standard on declared articles. I can't believe that this is followed closely by the importers.
http://www.fairtrading.nsw.gov.au/Businesses/Product_safety/Electrical_articles/Approval_of_electrical_articles.html#Declared_articles]
[url]http://www.fairtrading.nsw.gov.au/Businesses/Product_safety/Electrical_articles/Approval_of_electrical_articles.html#Declared_articles[/url]
AS/NZS 3820:2009 seems to be the relevant standard.

The thing that annoys me most about this is,  the safety standards are not free, they cost over $100. Your local library should have copies though.

You dont need to be a sparky to test and tag equipment, just a 'competant' person. Yet another costly standard.

I have a sparky and and EE qualifications. You do need to have a good understanding of AS3000 to do wiring. You also need insurance to contract out your services. I case something goes wrong they need someone with money to sue.
Worth doing the course if you get the chance.

[SteveH]

Stiege, most Polytechs run short courses for Electrical Service Person/ Technician (old EST A/B) classes of registration. The trick is then to find a way of getting the required practical hours so you can apply for registration.
Regards,
Steve.

[Stiege]

Stiege, most Polytechs run short courses for Electrical Service Person/ Technician (old EST A/B) classes of registration. The trick is then to find a way of getting the required practical hours so you can apply for registration.
Regards,
Steve.

That doesn't quite suit for me. If I had done a BEngTech (Electrical and Electronic) instead of a BE (Electronics) then I would be able to sit a regulatory exam and become an "Electrical Engineer" under the EWRB. I don't want to have to go to a basic EST course and then jump through 18 months worth of hoops in order to qualify as just an EST. I cover the same course material, and extra, for a BE (as opposed to BEngTech), and therefore I should be able to register. Thankfully it actually looks like my qualification can be recognised, so now my thoughts are that it should be more mainstream for university graduates to register.

[Stiege]

Have a look at the different courses, and you tell me what the difference is:

http://www.bengtech.ac.nz/program-structure/electrical-electronics

http://cms.its.waikato.ac.nz/sci/study/subjects/electronic-engineering

[SteveH]

Stiege, AFAIK if you wish to do Prescribed Electrical Work (PEW) regardless of what qualifications you have, you will be required to fufill the the practical requirements before you can apply to the EWRB for registration.
Regards,
Steve.

[Harvs]

Stiege, AFAIK if you wish to do Prescribed Electrical Work (PEW) regardless of what qualifications you have, you will be required to fufill the the practical requirements before you can apply to the EWRB for registration.
Regards,
Steve.

Yeah I looked at this a couple of years ago, because of absolutely ridiculous situation in WA with respect to mining.  Being a tradesman over hear you're pretty much set for a job earning almost as much as most public sector medical specialist (i.e. doctors with 15yrs of medical training).  Seriously, it's stupid, and has totally distorted the economy and value of things.

Anyway, a course or exams isn't the problem, they're really straightforward and one could pursue Recognition of Prior Learning (RPL) if they wanted to.  It's the practical requirements that basically make you go do a full apprenticeship.

[Stiege]

Stiege, AFAIK if you wish to do Prescribed Electrical Work (PEW) regardless of what qualifications you have, you will be required to fufill the the practical requirements before you can apply to the EWRB for registration.
Regards,
Steve.

Correct, as from 29 November 2013.

However until then, while "Electrical Engineer" still exists, take a look at option 2 for entry criteria:

http://www.ewrb.govt.nz/content/public-register.html

They're removing it as it is the only way to register without showing evidence of previous work. This is the result of a law change in 2006 that gave the EWRB the ability to change the classes of registration, rather than them being written in law. That's the bit that annoys me - they then go ahead and remove engineers, without consultation with IPENZ (Institute of Professional Engineers NZ) or anyone else. A board of electrical technicians just makes a decision "our industry doesn't need engineers" - ridiculous. What graduate is ever going to do 4 years of sub-minimum wage to become an electrician? No one. The problem is that as much as we talk about it, a university education actually turns out to be useless as everyone assumes it's just theory.

I'm not saying that engineers should have free reign or registration should be automatic for them or anything - but this solution is not the answer.

[SteveH]

Stiege, All they are doing is removing an anomaly. It became apparent that some engineers without practical experience often designed installations that  the installing tradesman  had to redesign on the fly. Anyway, as a degreed Electronics Engineer, why would you want to repair appliances for a living?
Tongue firmly in cheek,
Steve.

[Stiege]

Stiege, All they are doing is removing an anomaly. It became apparent that some engineers without practical experience often designed installations that  the installing tradesman  had to redesign on the fly. Anyway, as a degreed Electronics Engineer, why would you want to repair appliances for a living?
Tongue firmly in cheek,
Steve.

I'm unsure how the fact that electrical engineers designs needed to be redesigned on the fly by tradespeople means that the engineers should have their ability to register taken away. Surely it's more a reason to improve their training and give them some installation experience so they can improve. Comes back to communication if you ask me - maybe the engineer didn't mean for it to be used that way?

My main reason for wanting registration is not to be able to repair appliances - although I see no reason why I shouldn't be able to, it's a ridiculous rule. My main reason is that I'm an engineer and that my job involves developing equipment that will often involve mains voltages. I'm also looking to the future, home automation designs and smart grid systems. I want to be a part of that future as well as the Christchurch rebuild, and the development of a more modern electrical industry.

It is not sound, in my belief, that at the moment the decisions are being made by a board of (extremely experienced) electricians. An electrician requires only "good grades" in L2 english, math and science (is there even an actual standard for entry?). Electricians may be hard working, and earn the money they get, but they aren't the experts on electrical phenomenon, they are technicians.

Engineers are what is required for the development of new approaches, implementation of new technologies and the supervision of the technicians. For example, I've heard of more than one electrician struggling to install a phone and router setup for broadband. How's it going to go when we've got fibre optic links to each doorstep? What happens when we do start implementing smart grids, with automatic distribution technologies. Off-grid homes with complete renewable energy systems and the complex logic required to optimise the output from those systems - a power plant in every home, and maybe smart technologies linking them together. "Good" L2 english, math and science does not allow you to fully understand these technologies, it allows you to follow regulations and SoPs. And sure, you can take a course on how to install this stuff, and again create monopolies, then do you stop the person that designed said equipment from being able to install it? Because that's exactly what's happening here with the electrical system and electronics.

The future should be the smartening up of the workforce, more engineers -with practical, relevant skills- implementing more novel solutions. Not more technicians forming monopolies on jobs, having training schemes that take 4 years at sub-minimum wage.

I appreciate that there is not a single electrician out there that will agree with me - but to that I have to say, tough! Not all qualifications are equal, and a university level qualification rightly should give someone the ability to do a few more things than an apprenticeship scheme does. It should not be seen as, one thinks, the other does. I am a do-er too.

And if you would further like to know my reasons for wanting to get registered, I wanted to in fact pick up the skills of an electrician and then do aid work over seas. That possibility is dashed by EWRB excluding me from the industry.

[SteveH]

Stige, The EWRB is not excluding you from the industry, you are. Please explain to me why you feel you should be exempt from the practical experience requirements for registration in order to do PEW.
BTW, you may not want to get registered if you have a look at the compliance regime that awaits you!
Electrical Engineers who design installations will now have to certify them as fit for purpose and assume responsibility and LIABILITY for them. This wasn't previously the case. On the fly mods are not permitted without certification. The engineers that I grew up with/ worked with got their practical experience by working in the industry during the varsity breaks. Is it not possible for you to do likewise?
As an aside, in a previous life, Engineers designed things and us Techs had to chase the bugs out and get them to work.
FWIW, I am an old EST `B`, started life in telecoms in the 70's. These days I work for a firm  of Industrial Electricians. The work I do ranges from testing and tagging through to repairs on induction furnaces and everything inbetween.

[Stiege]

http://www.nzqa.govt.nz/studying-in-new-zealand/nzqf/understand-nz-quals/

Under the NZQA framework, I understand an Electrician is a level 4 certificate, on completion. My bachelors with first class honours will be level 8, if I do stay on to a PhD I will reach level 10. Please note in the table where it talks about the "Knowledge", "Skills" and "Application" for those respective levels of achievement. However I understand that you probably place very little weight on what the national framework for education states. I look at it another way though, to get my qualification I actually had to sit many exams and complete many practical lab assessments, an electrician just goes to work for 4 years (and while I acknowledge that by the end of that time they probably do have a pretty good clue, employers still sign off on some muppets). Also note that work placements over summer are actually mandatory for my qualification.

While I am unsure if exemption from the practical experience is the correct answer (perhaps this is the reason EE's seem to suffer a poor reputation), I can definitely say that having to commit to the same length of apprenticeship as an electrician is disingenuous towards my level of previous achievement. It does indeed state "advanced technical knowledge" and "critical understanding". To say that an achiever has to start from scratch is definitely rough, and I would say exclusionary. Ultimately, I believe it should be a system run by IPENZ (not EWRB), possibly only achieved once I become a chartered professional engineer (CPEng), this indeed takes about 4 years or more.

I do work in varsity breaks. Right now I'm working on high speed electronics for a flow cytometry device for a company in the US. Previously I have worked in the RnD department of an agricultural and industrial electronics company. Throughout the year I work for a company that designs and manufactures some industrial electronic devices.

I have previously spent 4 years in the military. I was an officer and achieved a GCGI in military technology. I'm not afraid of taking responsibility or assuming liability - I trust my work and I'm happy to accept when something is beyond me and get some help. I want a framework for this, not a handout.

It is only possible for me to register by doing the 8000 hours it seems (once they get rid of electrical engineers in November).

[SteveH]

Stiege, If you wish to do PEW, that comes under the ambit of the EWRB and you have no option but to comply with their requirements. I am assuming that you wish to be registered in order to do PEW, otherwise it is pointless. I fail to see how the involvement of IPENZ would be a solution.
Yes, muppets do get signed off in all trades and professions. A University degree in whatever does not exempt you from making mistakes or being in over your head and trying to bluff your way out.
Surely some of the work you are doing/ have done is eligible for RPL.
Regards,
Steve.

[Stiege]

Stiege, If you wish to do PEW, that comes under the ambit of the EWRB and you have no option but to comply with their requirements. I am assuming that you wish to be registered in order to do PEW, otherwise it is pointless. I fail to see how the involvement of IPENZ would be a solution.
Yes, muppets do get signed off in all trades and professions. A University degree in whatever does not exempt you from making mistakes or being in over your head and trying to bluff your way out.
Surely some of the work you are doing/ have done is eligible for RPL.
Regards,
Steve.

I don't see it as "no option", there are always options. The EWRB are not the experts, IPENZ are (again, see the NZQA framework). Involvement of IPENZ is relevant as EWRB has no understanding of university level qualifications - IPENZ accredits them and is the "Institute for Professional Engineers" - they know what they're talking about, being Engineers.

[SteveH]

Stiege, Engineers have IPENZ, Electrical Contractors have ECANZ, big deal. As it stands the EWRB has the final say on how and who can be registered in the electrical industry. I'm afraid I don't see this changing before Hell freezes over. The EWRB asked for input and submissions from all interested parties before making changes to the registration classes, and if I remember correctly the engineers weren't overly concerned.
Regards,
Steve.

[David_AVD]

Stiege, do you want to design and build (portable) electrical equipment, or work with (fixed) electrical installations?

[Stiege]

Stiege, do you want to design and build (portable) electrical equipment, or work with (fixed) electrical installations?

I want to be able to do both.

[David_AVD]

I would expect that you'd have to do a fair bit of on-the-job training to do fixed wiring.

[AlfBaz]

LOL
We once had this dude who just finished his masters join us. The big boss ( an engineer who actually worked/studied his way up from leco to engineer) threw him in with us when we were tying up a feeder cable. It took him ten minutes to work out how to use a cable tie... yeah give em all leco licenses I say

[SeanB]

My brother in law is a Civil engineer. Can build a massive complex, and it is still standing years later, unstable foundation and all. Still calls when wiring a plug though............ But does leave enough room in the drawings so you can actually put a cable into a cabinet and work on it and have an assistant there without you both being more intimate than if you were on a honeymoon.

[Stiege]

I would expect that you'd have to do a fair bit of on-the-job training to do fixed wiring.

Yup, fair enough, a fair bit. Maybe 4 years at sub-minimum wage is not the right solution though.

LOL
We once had this dude who just finished his masters join us. The big boss ( an engineer who actually worked/studied his way up from leco to engineer) threw him in with us when we were tying up a feeder cable. It took him ten minutes to work out how to use a cable tie... yeah give em all leco licenses I say

Not sure if you're being completely serious, everyone in my class knows how to use a cable tie if that's what you're questioning.

My brother in law is a Civil engineer. Can build a massive complex, and it is still standing years later, unstable foundation and all. Still calls when wiring a plug though............ But does leave enough room in the drawings so you can actually put a cable into a cabinet and work on it and have an assistant there without you both being more intimate than if you were on a honeymoon.

And so he should, he's an expert on keeping stuff standing, met plenty of mechanical engineers too that stay away from wiring up the systems they design and get the electrical guys to check it out too before we connect it up. No arguments there. But then we have to get an EST to measure the earth resistance path before we plug it in? Mmm, flaw in logic there.