Electrical substation - Tools

[Paschoal]

Hello everyone,
Can you guys give me some tips for improve the work on electrical substation ?
I am looking for tools that will help me gain time on the field work, like assembly of circuit breaker, current transformer, potential transformer and disconnect switch.
Unfortunately here we use concret not steel.
The other companie I worked do with steel structures and we use tools like DW292 and DCF880L2.

Feel free to make any correction on the english, I am learning by myself


Thanks

[Gregg]

Maybe you can explain a little more what you are trying to accomplish.
Are you working on large high voltage electrical distribution systems over 10KV and hundreds of amps; or electrical distribution in an industrial setting, or something else?
It seems like you are trying to speed up installation of semi-large commercial electrical components.

[Paschoal]

Here we build electric substation, 69kV/138kV,  69kV/230kV and 138kV/230kV.
The tools we have here are archaic...
I am looking for good tools, to improve and speed up the building process, here are a few examples os tools that I will buy, but I am new at the job and don't wan't to screw up everything. 

 DCD796 - Electric screwdriver - DeWalt 20V

ACCH40 -  hydraulic wire cutting tool

STST1825 - Woodworking

KPP - ES16 - bend Iron rod

[Gregg]

A lot depends on the scale of your operations, what is available in your country and how big of a crew you have. 
If you are doing concrete form work with reinforcing bars, a table saw may not be the best solution unless there is other woodwork to be done.  A skillsaw type saw or two may be a better use of your budget.  I personally like either the genuine Skill worm drive or the Makita hypoid drive; both corded.
For driving screws and other threaded fasteners, a battery impact driver will be easier to use than a battery drill.  If you do buy battery powered tools, get the industrial ones rather than the homeowner variety and get ones that all use the same batteries. 
A good rebar cutter / bender will pay for itself if you are doing enough concrete work.  A quality concrete vibrator is almost a necessity for concrete walls and pillars.  The easiest to use form ties may be cheaper in the long run than the cheap ones due to labor savings in both installation and removal of the forms. 
Knipex 95 32 320 ratcheting cable cutters [or equivalent] are faster and easier to use than the hydraulic cutter you listed; just make sure to buy quality ones.  If you are cutting the steel core aluminum cable, get a wire rope cutter or ACSR cutter; H.K.Porter makes some good ones.
Mounting things on strut can save a lot of time and make aligning things a lot easier.
For drilling concrete, get a roto-hammer rather than what is called a hammer drill.  You may need a couple of different size ones. For holes larger than about 17mm, get a spline drive rotor hammer; the spline drive ones don’t wear out as fast and get more of the forces to the drill bit.

[T3sl4co1l]

Hrmm...

Is it... worth it?  Apologies, I don't know the labor situation in .br, or in your market.  I'm guessing they're paying less (and cost of living is less) than for the same job in USA, or Europe, at least?

It's the same old cost-benefit problem that plays out anywhere else; if you need, say, a $200k bucket truck to do your job faster and/or safer than otherwise, but your labor is worth, say, $20k/yr and the equipment only merely doubles your output, it's barely paying for itself after 10 years so what's the point, right?

Or if you're talking much smaller things -- a few $k of handy tools like you just listed -- you can always save up and buy them personally, and charge the company however you like, give or take if that's specifically prohibited in your contract, or if that's going to cost even more to figure out in court (if escalated to that level), or so on.

A couple of those tools seem pretty basic to me, but I may be spoiled here in the land of automation (and workers liability)... again, if your employer doesn't see the benefit, you can try to convince them of it, or go out of your way to do it yourself and impress them (and hope to make back your investment, from them, somehow..).  But you may just have to suck it up and deal with it. That happens often enough here, too...

Also, there's the matter of competitive employment opportunities.  You can threaten them with leaving to work somewhere else... assuming there is another place, that you're willing to move to, that has such an opportunity for you.  In utilities, possibly not, I don't know...

...And if not, then there are still options, but they're getting a bit more radical.  You could start a union, get everyone to join it, and use that leverage to get better equipment, working standards, payment, whatever.  Up here, that sort of thing is protected by law, but I'm guessing you'd have a...riskier time doing that down there...

Anyway, just rambling.  Apologies if that went rather farther off the tracks than was requested.

Tim

[Paschoal]

Gregg, about the scale: 42 CT, 36 disconnect switch, 18 VT, 16 Circuit Breaker, here we have 92 people working on the field.
I will send a picture about the kind of woodworking they are doing, my english is too poor to describe.
About the impact drill, I think that the concrete will not support how much torque the output.  325 Nm (DW 292). Do impact drill have some kind of torque regulator?
we don't do it a lot of drilling, the structure already come with the holes. Disconsidering the low quality of the structure and terrible finishing, they came with the holes...
Thanks, I will search for the tools you mentioned.


Tim,
we have 3 construction sites, close to each other.
1 - close to the end.
2 - starting earthmoving
3 - project

"A couple of those tools seem pretty basic to me", Tim they are using tools like black and decker and tramontina, really cheap tools.
the company is rising again, the economic crisis put on the ground a lot of companies, You have an interesting point of view

The picture its from a CSAO (Caixa separadora de água e óleo), Oil and water separator used on power transformers.

[nanofrog]

You might want to consider a battery operated cable cutter (i.e. HK Porter previously mentioned), or Milwaukee as their M18 batteries fit a lot of tools, such as impact drivers, hammer drills, ... that they also offer.

[rstofer]

I have spent a lifetime in the electrical business.  As electricians, we were expected to provide our own hand tools - basically what we had in our tool pouch/belt.  Everything else, and certainly all power tools, was provided by the employer.  Most of our guys had personal tools beyond the list given below but our union representatives weren't overly picky about the small stuff.  Socket sets, wrenches and so on were mine and in my toolbox.  Nobody said anything.

Pages 11 and 12 give the list of tools employees must provide and those tools the employee is not allowed to provide by contract.

https://www.ibew48.com/sites/default/files/2015-2017_inside_agreement_-_cat_i_cat_ii_highlighted.pdf

Nobody wears a tool pouch these days, they simply carry their hand tools in a 5 gallon paint bucket.

It's not clear to me who is paying for all the tools listed in the replies above.  It should be the employer.  The idea is that productivity achieved by using more productive tools should be paid for and enjoyed by the employer.

Carpenters do not provide their own Skill Saws

https://www.nectf.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/tool_list_update.pdf


These tool lists are for a union shop.  The OP probably doesn't work in a union shop and things will be different but not to the extent of buying hydraulic tools  or other advanced tools that benefit the employer at a large cost to the employee.

[Paschoal]

rstofer

All the tools, equipments, safety gear, food on site, everything need to do the work is paid for the company. They can bring personal tools, if they want.
Thanks for sharing this documentation, now I want gear and salaries better for the team

Change of subject:
A friend of mine said to me that a construction worker earn around $15/hour, is that true ?


Nanofrog:
Milwaukee are better than DeWalt ? Here in Brazil they are more expensive than DeWalt
The Battery cable cutter will be a awesome add to the company, looks like a good investment.

HK Porter its hard to find here.

[rstofer]

Change of subject:
A friend of mine said to me that a construction worker earn around $15/hour, is that true ?

That's kind of like "how much does a car cost?".  It depends.  Yes, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, the median income for Construction Laborers is around $16/hour.  To that, add about 35% for benefits in a better shop.  Holidays, vacation, sick leave, medical, etc.  Most don't get these benefits unless they work in a union shop.

But that's not the whole story.  It depends on area, union vs non-union, and other factors.  If you drill down, Construction Laborers in California are around $22/hour.

https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes472061.htm#st

Non-union electricians are paid similarly

https://www.bls.gov/ooh/construction-and-extraction/electricians.htm

I think union electricians are broken into two camps:  Inside electricians (work in a factory) get about $17/hour, Journeymen Electricians (working in construction) make about $41/hour plus benefits for both.

https://www.glassdoor.com/Hourly-Pay/Ibew-Local-569-Hourly-Pay-E820972.htm

So, it depends.  When I was doing project management, I was having a hard time keeping up with the union electricians on my jobs.  I was doing a little better money wise and a lot better in terms of wear and tear on my body.  But I still like electrical construction.

BTW, those union rates vary across the country.  I just happened to pick local 569 because I used to live in San Diego.

Nanofrog:
Milwaukee are better than DeWalt ? Here in Brazil they are more expensive than DeWalt
The Battery cable cutter will be a awesome add to the company, looks like a good investment.

HK Porter its hard to find here.

Milwaukee tools are the top of the line.  DeWalt is good but I don't respect them as much since they were bought by Black and Decker.  THE TOOL to have is the Milwaukee Sawzall.  There's not much you can't do with this tool.  I have also had one of their battery drills for about 10 years or so.  Excellent.  Battery life sucks compared to the DeWalt because the DeWalt has a MUCH larger battery.  Makita is also excellent.  Their battery tools really perform.  I have their impact driver and their 1/2" drill - both excellent.  Don't overlook Bosch.  I have one of their impact drivers and I like it a lot.  I also have one of their larger 1/2" corded drills.  It is a real powerhouse!

Milwaukee for coded tools, Makita for battery tools - that's the way I would go.

[Paschoal]

But that's not the whole story.  It depends on area, union vs non-union, and other factors.  If you drill down, Construction Laborers in California are around $22/hour.

I think union electricians are broken into two camps:  Inside electricians (work in a factory) get about $17/hour, Journeymen Electricians (working in construction) make about $41/hour plus benefits for both.

 
 
 

I am a electrical engineer on this %#%#*& country, and earn $9/hour, without any benefit....This make me sad...

Any way, my biggest concern is the output torque delivered by impact drill, more then 300 Nm DeWalt, 610 Nm Milwaukee (this is insane).
The Siemens project tell me to use 170 Nm  of torque on steel/steel, here we are using steel/concrete 90 Nm, with 100 Nm the concrete is cracking.
Because I need to take account that, not everyone know when to stop.

[PedroDaGr8]

But that's not the whole story.  It depends on area, union vs non-union, and other factors.  If you drill down, Construction Laborers in California are around $22/hour.

I think union electricians are broken into two camps:  Inside electricians (work in a factory) get about $17/hour, Journeymen Electricians (working in construction) make about $41/hour plus benefits for both.

 
 
 

I am a electrical engineer on this %#%#*& country, and earn $9/hour, without any benefit....This make me sad...

Any way, my biggest concern is the output torque delivered by impact drill, more then 300 Nm DeWalt, 610 Nm Milwaukee (this is insane).
The Siemens project tell me to use 170 Nm  of torque on steel/steel, here we are using steel/concrete 90 Nm, with 100 Nm the concrete is cracking.
Because I need to take account that, not everyone know when to stop.

The Milwaukee M18 Fuel 2757-20 Impact Driver and the DeWalt XR DCF887B both do around 200Nm of torque. Though the higher end Milwaukee has the OneKey feature which would allow you to set the maximum torque values for the device. Allowing you some degree of control over how much force is applied by others.

For myself, I picked up a refurb DeWalt XR DCK283D2 kit, which has the aforementioned DCF887B XR Brushless Impact Driver and DCD791 XR Brushless Drill. At $140 combined for the two tools, two batteries, and a charger; I couldn't resist it. As my first modern cordless set, holy crap. The impact driver has surprised me, on its lowest setting it nicely drives screws into wood without splitting the wood; while on its highest setting I have actually sheared off thin screws. In my opinion you can't go wrong with either DeWalt or Milwaukee, just look at which tools best meet your needs and stick strictly to one or the other (as battery compatibility is very helpful).

[Gregg]

Paschoal,
Are you a project manager for these construction projects?  Managing construction projects differs depending on whether the project is being completely done by the end user with employees on their payroll; an independent contractor that does a specific project for a set price, often the lowest bid; or a project manager working [directly or indirectly] for the end user overseeing a project being constructed by a third party contractor.  Project managers need a lot of political skills far beyond they teach in EE classes.  It may help answer your questions to know your perspective on these projects.  Often deadlines take precedence over everything else, but most of the time it is the overall cost on a job by job basis. 

Managers seldom if ever will sacrifice short term profit for long term gains; long term goes against what is taught in business schools. Management always has a large input for purchasing tools.  There are tax issues involved with buying tools for construction, at least in the US.  There are expense and capital categories that each have tax consequences such that many companies buy cheap tools and call them expense items not expecting them to last longer than the project.  Expense items can be deducted as part of the job and their costs considered as part of the project.  Larger tools may become capital items, meaning that they can only deduct part of the cost on the first year’s business taxes. 

[rstofer]

Because I need to take account that, not everyone know when to stop.

Most drivers that I have used have adjustable torque.  Set it somewhat lower than specified and then turn the last little bit with a torque wrench.  If the number is important, you might as well get it right.

I didn't post wages for electrical engineers earlier - they are somewhat higher. The median pay is about $47/hour which isn't all that much higher than a union electrician at $41/hour.  That's why I had trouble keeping ahead of the workers.  But the countrywide median pay doesn't matter, all I care about is California.

Electrical Engineers (other than computer) make about $58/hour in California ($121K/year).  I wasn't making that much when I retired 15 years ago but I suspect wages have grown considerably over time.

https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes172072.htm#st

OTOH, a piece of crap house in Sunnyvale costs about $2 million dollars

https://www.mercurynews.com/2018/03/02/sunnyvale-home-shatters-new-record-with-enormous-price-tag/

It isn't all good news on the wage versus cost of living numbers.

[nanofrog]

Nanofrog:
Milwaukee are better than DeWalt ? Here in Brazil they are more expensive than DeWalt
The Battery cable cutter will be a awesome add to the company, looks like a good investment.

Absolutely.  They're very well made tools and will last a good long time; longer than DeWalt IME, especially for industrial use IME.

I would suggest buying some additional M18 5Ah batteries so you can keep working.

[Paschoal]

Gregg,
Sunday I will check the contract, I didn't know this detail about tools and equipments.

We are building a electrical substation for the Government and what I know is the mostly of the things we buy we resell to them (This is said on the contract).

"Managers seldom if ever will sacrifice short term profit for long term gains; long term goes against what is taught in business schools"

Why is that?
Sorry I don't undestand how short term profit can be better.
I always try to see what we are going accomplish in the long term.



PedroDaGr8
If one day I found DeWalt XR DCK283D2 kit for $140, I buyig for myself



rstofer

You didn't tell, but I assume that this place is a excelente place to live, right ?
https://www.vivareal.com.br/imovel/casa-2-quartos-vila-talarico-zona-leste-sao-paulo-com-garagem-120m2-venda-RS730000-id-1039248506/?__vt=ranking:visit

The land has 90m² = 968,752 square feet
$134,13/ square feet

https://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sale/Sunnyvale-CA/pmf,pf_pt/2112781230_zpid/54626_rid/globalrelevanceex_sort/37.556281,-121.816407,37.249734,-122.285386_rect/10_zm/


nanofrog,
Thanks man, this will help me a lot.
Now, the hard time, I need to convince them to buy 

[rstofer]

rstofer

You didn't tell, but I assume that this place is a excelente place to live, right ?
https://www.vivareal.com.br/imovel/casa-2-quartos-vila-talarico-zona-leste-sao-paulo-com-garagem-120m2-venda-RS730000-id-1039248506/?__vt=ranking:visit

The land has 90m² = 968,752 square feet
$134,13/ square feet

https://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sale/Sunnyvale-CA/pmf,pf_pt/2112781230_zpid/54626_rid/globalrelevanceex_sort/37.556281,-121.816407,37.249734,-122.285386_rect/10_zm/

I think Brazil would be a nice place to retire.  I would pay $180/mo for that place.

That Sunnyvale house will probably be torn down and replaced with some kind of McMansion.  That's pretty common!  You buy the location, not the house.

There are some nice places to live in the world that don't cost as much as Silicon Valley.  One time I was in Phuket, Thailand and the motel room on the beach was $7/night.  Literally, the walk to the beach was 50 feet.  It was 100 feet to the bar.  I'll bet I could get a discount if I rented it for a year.

I enjoyed South East Asia!  And the Maldives.  I forget what that trip cost but we stayed in a hut on the beach.  Right out the door into the water.  Clear blue water about 80 degrees F.  Magnificent!

[Gregg]

Gregg,

"Managers seldom if ever will sacrifice short term profit for long term gains; long term goes against what is taught in business schools"

Why is that?
Sorry I don't undestand how short term profit can be better.

Paschoal,
In the US of the electrical power is distributed by private companies that are granted monopoly status “for the greater good” or some such reasoning. Here in the US and I’m sure in many other countries, managers get bonuses more or less based on their performance.  Performance is most easily measured in money.  Managers are generally salaried rather than hourly employees.  Hourly employees only occasionally are given bonuses and if given bonuses they are not usually based on how much money they have saved the company. 
Accountants keep track of the money and can easily compile statistics to shoe which management group or whatever is doing better than expected, better than average, better than the median or any number of statistical terms that upper management uses to direct the company policy. 
No longer are companies loyal to their employees here.  Employees are considered a liability and there are often large layoffs to make the company look better to the stock holders.  Managers also have to prove that they worthy of not being let go.  Therefore managers are not 100% sure they will have a job next year and are eager to take as much as they can while they can and are ready to change jobs quickly if something better is offered.