Electricians - an awkward bunch to deal with

[paulca]

Having just had a forum on a local electrical suppliers around an inverter install it would seem the best way to piss off an electrician is to start trying to work out what it is they do in front of them.

A sub-set of them litterally start turning purple in the face and spitting venom at you.  "HOW DARE YOU!  HOW DARE YOU COME IN HERE TRYING TO UNDERSTAND STUFF!"  "BE GONE!  SPEND your £500 on ALL the manuals and ALL editions of the code and learn it by rote and by rhyme, no understanding required, just follow the letter!", "YOU ARE NOT QUALIFIED TO READ THE DOCUMENTATION OF MY TRADE!"  "I HAD TO GO TO TECH 3 DAYS A WEEK TO GET MY QUALIFICATION!  How dare you come in here and try and learn it DIY!",  "You aren't qualified to understand!"

They really do bump themselves up, don't they.  I wish there was a big manual I could read and remember for my trade.  I wish it was only 3 days and only one tech course and not 4 full time tech courses and 4 years of degree to get in the door, and a total of 8 years of advanced education to do my job.  Oh and you don't like people poking their nose behind the curtain to see the "emporor" and what he really does?  Guess what.  I'm a software engineer, everyone invites me into the business.  It's one of the perks/hells of the job.  Everyone opens the door and asks US to understand their business, understand everything that they do to the N'th degree, asks us to redesign their proceedures, business processes and data so they can be more productive.  I really wish I was in a professional so tightly guarded I could, like they do, put my head in a book and live by it as a bible.  If I obey the great book I am a good spark, no engineering required.

It's quite different than in here with actual electrical/electronics engineers.  I think installers "sparks" have a bit of chip on their shoulder as kids getting into it they probably thought they would become an engineer, when all they really do is follow a book written by others and are almost encouraged NOT to understand what they doing, for fear they make a decision which is not in line with the good book.

[redkitedesign]

Once upon a time, I was living in a rental.
The owner had hired some idiot to remove some tree stumps from the garden, and the idiot ripped up an underground cable.

So, responsible adult as I am, I taped up the bare ends of the cable. (It was on its own circuit, so the breaker was out. But since it was on a single pole breaker, it still caused a ground fault. Yes, the Main Switch board in this rental was ancient)

Comes the cousin twice removed from the gardener, who happens to be a Certified Sparky.

WHAT! YOU DARED TO ISOLATE BARE MAINS WIRE! DID YOU KNOW YOU CAN GET HUGE FINE FOR THAT!

Apparently, he (correctly) assumed I checked the breaker before isolating the wires.
Alternatively, he was more concerned with the rules and regulations and less with the actual safety of people.

Later, I moved to .NL where I'm legally allowed to isolate bare mains wires without prior trade group approval.

[unknownparticle]

Yeah, sparkies do tend to have a jumped up sense of self importance, particularly now they have all that complex test equipment to play with!!
And yet I've seen more utter botchery on domestic wiring installs than in any other electrical or electronic systems!

[Infraviolet]

"asks us to redesign their proceedures, business processes and data"
Lucky! I thought software engineers were usually asked to make a solution which would magically work despite all the problematic procedures, processes and data which the business doesn't want to change.

"more concerned with the rules and regulations and less with the actual safety of people"
Just a guess, but was this a younger electrician speaking? I have a suspicion, it certainly applies to other jobs, that education thesedays is making people more and more thoroughly in to rule-following-machines with no initiative of their own, the younger often seem more indoctrinated with these managerialism-derived attitudes.

[AndyBeez]

Having just had a forum on a local electrical suppliers around an inverter install it would seem the best way to piss off an electrician is to start trying to work out what it is they do in front of them.

In my opinionated opinion, sparks (electricians) come in two flavours. Those who know exactly what they are doing, understand the practical aspects of installation and, can give you a theory lesson on earth leakage current - written on the back of an envelope. And then there are those who went on a course and payed the fees. Funny how these guys never have anything in their van that is needed for the job they came to do? Not even half a yard of T&E cable. Time served? In prison I suspect.

Either species bang on about "the Regs". Some know the regs, even the latest ones, know why the regs exist and how the regs are often written by 'engineers' who have never used a Fluke installation tester in their academic lives. And then there's those who just bang on about the regs. Yes, anyone with overpowering aftershave can use a bleeping plug-in socket tester. Remember, to most people electrics is voodoo.

Regardless of the manpower quality though, you'll own a recent electrical inspection certificate which validates your insurance


As a side: I note my autocorrection keeps trying to change the word electrician to electrocution?

[shapirus]

Electricians aside, let's talk about metrologists and the "your one volt is unholy until it is sanctified". Of course it is not, but sometimes they sound like I must have a calibration certificate for my DMM to have a right to refer to its measurements in a discussion.

[thm_w]

Having just had a forum on a local electrical suppliers around an inverter install it would seem the best way to piss off an electrician is to start trying to work out what it is they do in front of them.

Its not that clear what you are ranting about here.
Is this a web forum you are talking about, or someone was doing their job and you interrupted them?

[eti]

Having just had a forum on a local electrical suppliers around an inverter install it would seem the best way to piss off an electrician is to start trying to work out what it is they do in front of them.

A sub-set of them litterally start turning purple in the face and spitting venom at you.  "HOW DARE YOU!  HOW DARE YOU COME IN HERE TRYING TO UNDERSTAND STUFF!"  "BE GONE!  SPEND your £500 on ALL the manuals and ALL editions of the code and learn it by rote and by rhyme, no understanding required, just follow the letter!", "YOU ARE NOT QUALIFIED TO READ THE DOCUMENTATION OF MY TRADE!"  "I HAD TO GO TO TECH 3 DAYS A WEEK TO GET MY QUALIFICATION!  How dare you come in here and try and learn it DIY!",  "You aren't qualified to understand!"

They really do bump themselves up, don't they.  I wish there was a big manual I could read and remember for my trade.  I wish it was only 3 days and only one tech course and not 4 full time tech courses and 4 years of degree to get in the door, and a total of 8 years of advanced education to do my job.  Oh and you don't like people poking their nose behind the curtain to see the "emporor" and what he really does?  Guess what.  I'm a software engineer, everyone invites me into the business.  It's one of the perks/hells of the job.  Everyone opens the door and asks US to understand their business, understand everything that they do to the N'th degree, asks us to redesign their proceedures, business processes and data so they can be more productive.  I really wish I was in a professional so tightly guarded I could, like they do, put my head in a book and live by it as a bible.  If I obey the great book I am a good spark, no engineering required.

It's quite different than in here with actual electrical/electronics engineers.  I think installers "sparks" have a bit of chip on their shoulder as kids getting into it they probably thought they would become an engineer, when all they really do is follow a book written by others and are almost encouraged NOT to understand what they doing, for fear they make a decision which is not in line with the good book.

Summation: They feel inadequate because their (VERY BASIC) job is shoving wires through holes drilled in beams, tacking them down and terminating them, running them through conduit etc... yeah, been there, done all that utterly deflating nonsense as a teenager (parent's close family friend ran an electrical contractors).

It is work, and work that needs doing. An idiot cannot do it - I am not saying they're stupid, but it's hardly MENSA qualification.

[SmallCog]

I find that sparkies working in industrial settings are generally better to deal with than the domestic variety

I presume it's because the industrial sparkies understand that there are things in this world that they don't understand whilst the domestic ones are yet to realise this.

For anyone who enjoys a crude giggle (and understand australian) sparkies aren't treated too kindly in the animated series "mining boom" that's freely available on youtube.

[vk6zgo]

Yeah, sparkies do tend to have a jumped up sense of self importance, particularly now they have all that complex test equipment to play with!!
And yet I've seen more utter botchery on domestic wiring installs than in any other electrical or electronic systems!

If the wiring is neat, it was some illicit stuff done by a Technician------not an Engineer, their stuff is as "bodgie" as a sparky!

[vk6zgo]

Electricians aside, let's talk about metrologists and the "your one volt is unholy until it is sanctified". Of course it is not, but sometimes they sound like I must have a calibration certificate for my DMM to have a right to refer to its measurements in a discussion.

Back in the day, we had an informal concept of "on site" one volt for video signals.
In the real world, it did not matter if was really 0.9 v or 1.1 v, as long as everything in the building agreed on the same level.

Also, on this forum, God help you if you should dare to be so "ideologically impure" as to suggest that an analog 'scope could be more effective in some particular application than a DSO.
The "true believers" will descend on you!!

[themadhippy]

I presume it's because the industrial sparkies understand that there are things in this world that they don't understand whilst the domestic ones are yet to realise this

And due to the backhanders rules in the uk,said industrial sparks aint allowed to do domestic work unless they pay there bung to an appropriate  cartel,even thought often they've not only passed the same exams,but often continued to study to a higher level

[vk6zgo]

Having just had a forum on a local electrical suppliers around an inverter install it would seem the best way to piss off an electrician is to start trying to work out what it is they do in front of them.

In my opinionated opinion, sparks (electricians) come in two flavours. Those who know exactly what they are doing, understand the practical aspects of installation and, can give you a theory lesson on earth leakage current - written on the back of an envelope. And then there are those who went on a course and payed the fees. Funny how these guys never have anything in their van that is needed for the job they came to do? Not even half a yard of T&E cable. Time served? In prison I suspect.

Either species bang on about "the Regs". Some know the regs, even the latest ones, know why the regs exist and how the regs are often written by 'engineers' who have never used a Fluke installation tester in their academic lives. And then there's those who just bang on about the regs. Yes, anyone with overpowering aftershave can use a bleeping plug-in socket tester. Remember, to most people electrics is voodoo.

Regardless of the manpower quality though, you'll own a recent electrical inspection certificate which validates your insurance


As a side: I note my autocorrection keeps trying to change the word electrician to electrocution?

Back in the day, in Oz, electricians had to go to Tech school & learn actual electrical theory.

During the crazy days of the late 1980s/'90s, it was the "received wisdom" that Trade Occupations were going to become obsolete, as "everything would be done with computers", the large State owned public utilities which each year turned out a lot of qualified "Tradies", many of whom who duly went off to work for the Private Sector, were decimated, (& ultimately sold off) slashing their apprentice intakes.

The Private Sector whose training was already inadequate in numerical terms, saw what the govt had done & slashed their training, too.

When it eventuated that the MBAs & people with Degrees in Computer Science were not all getting jobs in those areas, but some were "flipping burgers", whilst at the same time, "Tradies" were becoming "rare as hen's teeth", a re-think was in order.

Governments then asked industry what they needed----sounds good, but industry, who had in the main, not been involved in Technical Training for years, just said "we want people who "can do this, or do that", so the Tech Schools became TAFE, with the new idea being to teach specific skills in short courses "monkey see, monkey do" style, without any serious attempt at an overarching theoretical narrative to link things together.

[james_s]

If you think electricians are bad, try dealing with HVAC guys.

I was fortunate growing up that one of my favorite uncles was a master electrician, he used to let me help him with projects and taught me all the tricks. I considered going into that line of work but he said I'd be bored, maybe so, I get bored doing what I do now but at least I don't have to put up with a union and the associated thugs.

[TERRA Operative]

On the other side of the coin, as an electrician, having to deal with whiney customers peering over your shoulder thinking they know more than you and trying to tell you how to do your job is why I got out of domestic electrical, and eventually electrical entirely.

I've been a sparky across 3 states of Australia and two countries. Now I work in IT and am happy to sit in a data center a loooonnngggg way from any customers...



I agree on the HVAC thing though, those guys are fkn cowboys. 

[coppercone2]

Sometimes I feel like the world has so many problems that enforcing some code on some random crap is just not worth humanities time and its a detriment to growth.

Like if electricity was the only thing that can hurt us, when we solved all other problems, then yes, I would agree with the strictest interpretation, but as it is, I find it amusing that a building spending money on being 100% on the electrical system is like much less safe then a building with a bit of ad hock wiring and money that goes to some contractors that clean ice off the steps and ensure there are no leaks, lights that went out.. and that skilled people get raises they need for retention and quality of life, so the country does not fall apart in 20 years.

What I am getting at is that the cost/benefit analysis makes me think that it went crazy. Maybe enforce some cost limits on work if you are enforcing the law so much to pedantic ends.

Like the customer was not scammed, the employee got a small raise and they actually threw a pizza party in exchange for leaving the incorrect color wire being routed to auxiliary janitors closet #13 which never had anything plugged into the outlet in 15 years. A main feeder at the hospital is one thing, but necessitating that the lowest skill and intelligence personnel need to rapidly repair a phone charger circuit to seldom used break room is just over the top. Society is just not there yet....

I feel like electricans should make as much as they do because they can trouble shoot this kind of stuff and figure out problems and whatnot, if you have 100% code, then why do you need to pay them more. The benefit is that there are massive upkeep  benefits towards having skilled electronics trouble shooters because they can deal with nonidealities. There are like so many other problems to deal with.

[Ed.Kloonk]

Having just had a forum on a local electrical suppliers around an inverter install it would seem the best way to piss off an electrician is to start trying to work out what it is they do in front of them.

In my opinionated opinion, sparks (electricians) come in two flavours. Those who know exactly what they are doing, understand the practical aspects of installation and, can give you a theory lesson on earth leakage current - written on the back of an envelope. And then there are those who went on a course and payed the fees. Funny how these guys never have anything in their van that is needed for the job they came to do? Not even half a yard of T&E cable. Time served? In prison I suspect.

Either species bang on about "the Regs". Some know the regs, even the latest ones, know why the regs exist and how the regs are often written by 'engineers' who have never used a Fluke installation tester in their academic lives. And then there's those who just bang on about the regs. Yes, anyone with overpowering aftershave can use a bleeping plug-in socket tester. Remember, to most people electrics is voodoo.

Regardless of the manpower quality though, you'll own a recent electrical inspection certificate which validates your insurance


As a side: I note my autocorrection keeps trying to change the word electrician to electrocution?

In my lifetime I've seen those old guys who had to know theory to pass the course when they were young. Since then it's all about being able to parse what's written in the regs. In the name of safety. But is it safer? Fuct if I know!

Btw, my autocorrector wants to convert your autocorrection to auto-correction.

[TERRA Operative]

Sometimes I feel like the world has so many problems that enforcing some code on some random crap is just not worth humanities time and its a detriment to growth.

Like if electricity was the only thing that can hurt us, when we solved all other problems, then yes, I would agree with the strictest interpretation, but as it is, I find it amusing that a building spending money on being 100% on the electrical system is like much less safe then a building with a bit of ad hock wiring and money that goes to some contractors that clean ice off the steps and ensure there are no leaks, lights that went out.. and that skilled people get raises they need for retention and quality of life, so the country does not fall apart in 20 years.

What I am getting at is that the cost/benefit analysis makes me think that it went crazy. Maybe enforce some cost limits on work if you are enforcing the law so much to pedantic ends.

Like the customer was not scammed, the employee got a small raise and they actually threw a pizza party in exchange for leaving the incorrect color wire being routed to auxiliary janitors closet #13 which never had anything plugged into the outlet in 15 years. A main feeder at the hospital is one thing, but necessitating that the lowest skill and intelligence personnel need to rapidly repair a phone charger circuit to seldom used break room is just over the top. Society is just not there yet....

I feel like electricans should make as much as they do because they can trouble shoot this kind of stuff and figure out problems and whatnot, if you have 100% code, then why do you need to pay them more. The benefit is that there are massive upkeep  benefits towards having skilled electronics trouble shooters because they can deal with nonidealities. There are like so many other problems to deal with.

Until that highrise building over there burns down due to a faulty electrical termination and kills a bunch of people.
Then who is held accountable for that 'ok' amount of ad hock wiring?

The regulations weren't put in place by the government, they were originally enforced by the insurance companies. Wiring not up to code? No insurance..
It comes down to money in the end. Insurance companies won't want to take the risk on a dangerous policy, dangerous to their bottom line that is.

I think it is better to keep the issue of electrical safety small, rather than give it leeway to become one of the big issues, like whether or not to have a pizza party.

I'd rather have an alive family and stay out of prison for professional negligence than have an extra pizza or two.



Oh and the book and the training gives me a little extra job security (if I go back to electrical work), so there's that aspect that biases me too, beyond not killing people....

[AVGresponding]

Such animosity, I feel quite threatened... or at least I would if I wasn't instead inclined to laugh-out-loud at the general levels of generalisation, ignorance, and stereotyping
 

People are people, regardless of what they do for a living; some are highly intelligent, some are less so. Some are dumb as posts. Some are friendly, some are detached. Some are downright hostile.

Assuming levels of intelligence, education, and empathy, based on the job that someone does is lazy and arrogant.

[tszaboo]

I was redoing the fuse box and the entire wiring of the house when I bought it. There was a lack of ground wire in most of the rooms, and the fuse box was with fuses, not breakers. So I got two electrician, one was just doing his job, not even talking to me. The other one was doing this as his side job, his main job being a magician. I really had a good talk with him, about the tools, how is it going with life, and helped him with a bunch of simple tasks.

The regulations weren't put in place by the government, they were originally enforced by the insurance companies. Wiring not up to code? No insurance..
It comes down to money in the end. Insurance companies won't want to take the risk on a dangerous policy, dangerous to their bottom line that is.

IMHO the issue is not with you doing something at home. The issue is with other people (including future you). You expect the electrical system of a place to work in a certain way. When you plug into an outlet, you expect something to happen, or when you flip a switch. If you do something that's outside the code, or you don't know the code, unexpected things lead to unsafe situations.

[paulca]

The regulations weren't put in place by the government, they were originally enforced by the insurance companies. Wiring not up to code? No insurance..
It comes down to money in the end. Insurance companies won't want to take the risk on a dangerous policy, dangerous to their bottom line that is.

While this may be true in some places I think it is over stated.

In the UK it is more likely your bank that will ask for an electrical certificate, not the insurance.  The only instance I have persnonal experience of, the bank asked the buyer to produce an electrical test certificate as a condition on the mortgage application.  They got stung for £850 for a new consumer unit and a complete rewire of ALL the recessed 12V spot lights in the ceilings.   "We can't have low voltage, 'bell wire' circuits anymore, they all have to come out and fire save 240V downlighters put in."

My bank never asked.  Nor did my insurance company.  Actually, I believe there was a tick box for a recent (last 5 years) electrical test report and I left it un-ticked.  My insurance costs me about £190 a year.

Further reading into problem cases like this and in the UK the insurance company need to prove negligence to attribute liability to you.

As a contrived example, lets say I install the inverter myself (I am actually hirering a local spark to help).  Lets say I made a mistake, lets say when the smoldering remains of my house steaming in the morning light and the fire cheif says the fire started at the inverter and looks like an electrical installation fault.  Then, yes, the insurance company would have questions for me.  They could imply negligence, such that it was not installed by a profressional.  The legal term "Reckless" can then be employed if they can prove I knew it was dangerous to do alone, but did it anyway.  Reckless makes to negligent as there is duty of care as a home owner.  Thus they can pin an amount % of liability onto me.

As the fire was not started deliberately, the amount of liability is proportional. 

[paulca]

The particular regulations, in the UK, regarding the inverter are the recently updated ESS for PEI.  Electricity storage systems for prosumer electrical installations.

I'm sure you guys are somewhat familiar with how these BS standards go.  They go to the N'th detail on every aspect of safety.  Then they go and consult with engineers in the industry.  Instead they seem to speak to product sales people who when asked their profressional engineering recommendations just copy and paste the specs from the latest, greatest, most expensive product.  (licking their lips and rubbing their hands at all the people who will suddenly be forced to buy from them).

The amount of details is highlighted in the test and compliance certificates they want for LFP cells.  They want tests showing individual cells have been tested with a 0.38Ohm short, having a 9.1Kg hammer dropped on them, being dropped from 1.5m onto a corner and so forth.  Basically a copy and paste of a spec sheet for an automotive grade cell sold by which ever commercial outfit did the consulting.

The worst bit is.  The scope of the regulations shifted from "roof top solar" and "grid tie" inverters to include any and all energy storage systems whether they feed in or not, regardless of voltage, power, AC or DC.  They are ALL covered.

My basic questions was, given my limited installation purpose, how much of it applies to me?  What do I NEED to do, such that I don't get ripped off paying for an OTT install I don't need.

This goes off the rails because the inverter I am installing is part of a range which, can, technically be configured to "feed out" the AC IN.  I am still left unsure if this is or is not the case.  The inverter is part of a large range of inverters which go from 12V/500W up to 48V/5000W and parallel and series way up further.   Some units are designed for caravans and some for full rooftop solar rigs.

The documentation in question is a £70 publication.  I have found the DNO copies and the government EREC reviews.  The regulations covers a VAST scope of installations from single electric cars all the way up to 5MW CCGT plants.  Of course it's a tedious tome of forward and backward references.  "Given Annex A.2 exclusions under part 4.3.2, 5.4.6 and 7.2.9...."   and things like that.  They are 300+ page documents.  It is very difficult to extract out the simple question "What does and does not apply to me exactly?"

"Seek professional help."

I tried this.
Solar installer:  "We only do full package deals.",  "We don't install customer purchased equipment", "We only provide out own equipment", "We don't do DC/Storage/Off-Grid".
Local Sparks:  "Don't touch solar", "Don't touch DC", "Not qualified", "No idea mate.", "Not interested.", "£3000", "6 months at least mate I'm booked out by the solar installers"

So I need to come part way out to find WHAT exactly I need.  Then I can approach more local sparks, show them the documentation etc. and be able to explain in their language what I need and what I DONT need.

The worst case is, I find a spark to do this, but he wants to do it, 110% to code and won't accept the current aged house electrical system as a start point.  I'll be on the hook for a complete consumer unit update, meter board rewire and probably a few earthing tails/bonding replaced or put in place in the first instance.  That all does need done.  However I do not want to couple the two projects.  I basically want to treat the inverter/batteries like an RV/Caravan/Motorhome/boat.  The only difference is the fixed earthing. 

It was that later point, "earthing".  Once you touch that stuff on these forums the sparks get really upset.  I'm not saying that I have a full understanding of building earthing, DNO earthing, TT/TN-S/TT-NS etc. etc.  Single earth versus multiple earth and soil ohm-age considerations etc.  Mine field (pun?).  I figure they get so upset if you ask questions about this because 99% of them don't have a clue either, they work by the rules of thumb that got them through their tech course exams and only do their homework and sums for particular high profile jobs.  "So how DARE you try and understand something that I as a 20 year professional can't understand."

In my case, one of them said I needed a separate earth for the island side of the inverter.  I took this to mean a TT arrangement with house and complained that was not ideal for safety reasons and ground currents flowing between devices on different phases.  BOOM!  That set a few red facers off.  The original "nice" spark thankfully explained it is because the island cannot "rely" on the DNO earth during a grid fault.  Both earths can be bonded, but there must be a local ground rod.  Also a spark should be able to tell me if I do indeed have a buried lead cable install, which changes things a little in my favour.

[paulca]

I also need to put my hand up in being partly to blame.  I'm not changing for anyone, but I like to plot a path of "generalism" in knowledge while dropping off that "motorway" into cities, towns and little villages of specific topics and industries when I need to.

However, the analogy holds that some people in those local areas of knowledge consider me a nosey foreigner/out of towner.   What annoys them more is that I will still return back to that "motorway" and travel far afield to many towns and cities.  This means that my terminology and language usually reverts to "generic" style or using the lowest common denominator terms and... critically, not that particularly "towns" dialect.

Me: "Spade..."
Them: "We call it a monopeedal manual digging implement!"
Me:  OFFS.

[tom66]

This is true of a lot of trades.  A good one I've seen recently is the air conditioning trade in the UK being up in arms about a major UK company selling fit-it-yourself air con.  These systems use propane as a refrigerant which has negligible global warming potential and therefore, legally, you do not need to be qualified to install or maintain these systems.  Yet the trade board is very upset at this development.  Nevermind the fact that we let people run portable gas grills off propane, or refrigerators, or any number of other things, apparently DIYers fitting a propane system with 400g of refrigerant within it is a recipe for disaster.

[tggzzz]

Yeah, sparkies do tend to have a jumped up sense of self importance, particularly now they have all that complex test equipment to play with!!
And yet I've seen more utter botchery on domestic wiring installs than in any other electrical or electronic systems!

If the wiring is neat, it was some illicit stuff done by a Technician------not an Engineer, their stuff is as "bodgie" as a sparky!

Just so.

Once, 40 years ago, some of my wiring inside a prototype electric door mechanism was criticised as not being especially neat. I agreed, pointing out that I wasn't a technician. I also pointed out something in the design that a technician might have missed. The designer didn't want to acknowledge the issue; the prototype was never reliable.

If I need a diagnosis of a medical problem, I want a doctor to do it. If I want blood taken or a leg plastered, I want a nurse to do it. Vive la difference!