Electricians - an awkward bunch to deal with

[tggzzz]

The regulations weren't put in place by the government, they were originally enforced by the insurance companies. Wiring not up to code? No insurance..
It comes down to money in the end. Insurance companies won't want to take the risk on a dangerous policy, dangerous to their bottom line that is.

That's too often forgotten.

A similar example was used to wind the masses up to prepare them to vote for Brexit: "The EU mandates how straight cucumbers must be".

True. But they did it because the growers and shops wanted them to.

[tggzzz]

People are people,

Precisely.

I like the Middle European variant of that: "Mensch ist mensch", the whole world over.

[paulca]

Yeah, sparkies do tend to have a jumped up sense of self importance, particularly now they have all that complex test equipment to play with!!
And yet I've seen more utter botchery on domestic wiring installs than in any other electrical or electronic systems!

If the wiring is neat, it was some illicit stuff done by a Technician------not an Engineer, their stuff is as "bodgie" as a sparky!

Just so.

Once, 40 years ago, some of my wiring inside a prototype electric door mechanism was criticised as not being especially neat. I agreed, pointing out that I wasn't a technician. I also pointed out something in the design that a technician might have missed. The designer didn't want to acknowledge the issue; the prototype was never reliable.

If I need a diagnosis of a medical problem, I want a doctor to do it. If I want blood taken or a leg plastered, I want a nurse to do it. Vive la difference!

You know that's fair.  Because when it comes to physically installing the inverter, I actually want the spark to do it and a large part of that IS that it will be done more "tidy" and maybe with aesthetic pride if I'm lucky.  For the two or three aspects I show an interest in, he will have another 10 I never thought about of which only maybe 5 I would have found out "the hard way" mid job with the wrong tools and supplies.

I'm just trying to be an educated consumer in understanding what I need and not what I will be sold.

EDIT:  I went off scaring myself looking for people blowing up these inverters.  It will not surprise you that almost all of them came down to the simple things.  Stuffing only 1/4" of stranded AC 30Amp cable into spring clip posts on the inverter....  yep.  LOL.  The same guy after having to ASK Victron why it went on fire and receiving the advice that the wire had not enough run out and should be sleived or ferruled then started questioning the use of ferrules with stranded cable giving some whacky reason about the copper spreading out and making more contact...  I can see him setting fire to a few more things.

[tggzzz]

IMHO the issue is not with you doing something at home. The issue is with other people (including future you). You expect the electrical system of a place to work in a certain way. When you plug into an outlet, you expect something to happen, or when you flip a switch. If you do something that's outside the code, or you don't know the code, unexpected things lead to unsafe situations.

Daughter is having a lot of work done on the house she is moving into, including rebuilding two kitchens.

Sparky damn near electrocuted himself.

He had isolated the ringmain in one kitchen, and checked sockets weren't live. He started removing one socket, and got a nasty shock. That one socket was on a different ringmain.

Yes, he acknowledges he should have checked 100% of the sockets, but only checked 90% of them. "There, but for the grace of God, go I".

[tggzzz]

Yeah, sparkies do tend to have a jumped up sense of self importance, particularly now they have all that complex test equipment to play with!!
And yet I've seen more utter botchery on domestic wiring installs than in any other electrical or electronic systems!

If the wiring is neat, it was some illicit stuff done by a Technician------not an Engineer, their stuff is as "bodgie" as a sparky!

Just so.

Once, 40 years ago, some of my wiring inside a prototype electric door mechanism was criticised as not being especially neat. I agreed, pointing out that I wasn't a technician. I also pointed out something in the design that a technician might have missed. The designer didn't want to acknowledge the issue; the prototype was never reliable.

If I need a diagnosis of a medical problem, I want a doctor to do it. If I want blood taken or a leg plastered, I want a nurse to do it. Vive la difference!

You know that's fair.  Because when it comes to physically installing the inverter, I actually want the spark to do it and a large part of that IS that it will be done more "tidy" and maybe with aesthetic pride if I'm lucky.  For the two or three aspects I show an interest in, he will have another 10 I never thought about of which only maybe 5 I would have found out "the hard way" mid job with the wrong tools and supplies.

It goes both ways: you each catch things the other doesn't catch.

In general, neither an engineer/doctor or a technician/nurse is sufficient. Both are necessary.

I distrust the knowledge and judgement of those that don't realise that.

[paulca]

He had isolated the ringmain in one kitchen, and checked sockets weren't live. He started removing one socket, and got a nasty shock. That one socket was on a different ringmain.

Yes, he acknowledges he should have checked 100% of the sockets, but only checked 90% of them. "There, but for the grace of God, go I".

Seen Artisan Electrics do similar in a kitchen job.  Discovered "just in time" the circuit was borrowing a live via a boiler install by a plumber.  If the boiler is switched on, the ring main became live again.  It was just an after thought to check something unrelated that made him aware there was power.  Might have been a microwave clock flashing or something.

[tggzzz]

He had isolated the ringmain in one kitchen, and checked sockets weren't live. He started removing one socket, and got a nasty shock. That one socket was on a different ringmain.

Yes, he acknowledges he should have checked 100% of the sockets, but only checked 90% of them. "There, but for the grace of God, go I".

Seen Artisan Electrics do similar in a kitchen job.  Discovered "just in time" the circuit was borrowing a live via a boiler install by a plumber.  If the boiler is switched on, the ring main became live again.  It was just an after thought to check something unrelated that made him aware there was power.  Might have been a microwave clock flashing or something.

Ah yes. Plumbing.

Daughter was in a 1930s house that had been converted into student accomodation.

The boiler failed completely, but they still had hot water in one bathroom. No, it wasn't an electric shower etc. The only possible explanation was that the water for that bathroom was coming from the adjacent house. Don't ask for any details, since there isn't a (rational) explanation.

(I'll ignore where the electricity entered the house, and the sparky refused to approach it - sensibly saying the electricity supply company would have to touch it)

[paulca]

For me I tend to set myself boundaries.  If it involves high voltage (>50V) I either find another way or I fully research the application until I feel I understand it.

For mains 240VAC, I will do things which are considered "temporary" or "minimal".  Like replacing a light switch, putting a double plug onto an unused shower circuit would be minimal.  Running 240V up my DC 3 core as a test, might be a temporary class item.  Something that only needs to be safe within the time bounds of my elevated interest in it.  In that it's a "Lab" style feature that requires technical management to be safe.

Anything that needs to be permenant, especially to the extent it would be considered as "part of the estate" during a house sale, needs to be done by a certified spark.  Anything in the meter box/consumer unit.  Anything involving "structural wiring".

99% of my home automation stuff I added can be removed in a matter of hours and previous dumb functionality restored.  It's all DIY. 

[coppice]

He had isolated the ringmain in one kitchen, and checked sockets weren't live. He started removing one socket, and got a nasty shock. That one socket was on a different ringmain.

Yes, he acknowledges he should have checked 100% of the sockets, but only checked 90% of them. "There, but for the grace of God, go I".

Seen Artisan Electrics do similar in a kitchen job.  Discovered "just in time" the circuit was borrowing a live via a boiler install by a plumber.  If the boiler is switched on, the ring main became live again.  It was just an after thought to check something unrelated that made him aware there was power.  Might have been a microwave clock flashing or something.

Anyone who touches a fitting without checking that actual fitting is not live is a fool. It can be hard with some fully wired in fittings, but things like lights and sockets are trivial to check. Things like lights are specifically wired up to be intertwined between circuits, so a single breaker going doesn't leave you in total darkness.

[themadhippy]

Seen Artisan Electrics do similar in a kitchen job

And could have been cured in a few minutes without ripping half the house apart.

[TERRA Operative]

Ah the golden rule. Test before you touch. Many issues arise when that rule is broken, and it's almost always directly the fault of the person involved.

No test, no touch, no dead...

[AVGresponding]

"It's live until you prove it isn't" works most of the time. I did once discover a lighting circuit in a village sports hall that was fed from each end, from two different DBs...

[coppice]

Ah the golden rule. Test before you touch. Many issues arise when that rule is broken, and it's almost always directly the fault of the person involved.

No test, no touch, no dead...

Some people are so used to shocks they consider touch to be the test.

[paulca]

Ah the golden rule. Test before you touch. Many issues arise when that rule is broken, and it's almost always directly the fault of the person involved.

No test, no touch, no dead...

Some people are so used to shocks they consider touch to be the test.

9V batteries, yes.  With my tongue.  I can give you a SoC to 1 significant figure.

[Zucca]

I tend to have a lot of respect of old electricians who survived 40 years dealing with mains.
The younger ones are the worst, they got 2 weeks certification class and they think they know everything.

Normally I show them my lab as first thing, once they see all that equipment they automagically change attitude.

Remarkable monkey level for internet installation muppets, one of them told me there is 1000dB attenuation in the coax cable between the basement and the third floor.
I did not respond, it was not worth the time and energy.

[james_s]

This is true of a lot of trades.  A good one I've seen recently is the air conditioning trade in the UK being up in arms about a major UK company selling fit-it-yourself air con.  These systems use propane as a refrigerant which has negligible global warming potential and therefore, legally, you do not need to be qualified to install or maintain these systems.  Yet the trade board is very upset at this development.  Nevermind the fact that we let people run portable gas grills off propane, or refrigerators, or any number of other things, apparently DIYers fitting a propane system with 400g of refrigerant within it is a recipe for disaster.

Propane is an excellent replacement for R22, it has almost identical properties aside from being flammable, in fact it offers slightly improved performance in R22 systems. It is actually a federal crime here to use it as a refrigerant, although that doesn't stop some people from doing it. Instead of switching to expensive R410 which is a greenhouse gas and new equipment they could have just switched to propane when phasing out R22. Personally I don't think R22 should have ever been phased out in the first place, it has only 5% of the ozone depletion potential of R12 and modern regulations require fixing leaks and recovering used refrigerant. The big problem with R12 is it was used EVERYWHERE, including as a propellant in aerolsol cans.

[mendip_discovery]

Talk of some of these out of the training course electricians reminded me of Isaac Asimov and the Foundation books. I recently had to do a PAT training course (online) and I found the 2hrs a complete waste of time. I got more info from the quick start guide that came with my seaward pat tester.

I'm the UK amongst the trades it's often joked that electricians are over paid. Supposedly they clean tools with £50 notes etc.

With the metrology snobbery. Yeah I have been known to be like that. But it's my job so I do get a little sensitive up about it. I don't mean to be a twat about it. Just finished a two day grilling from the assessors and they take it really seriously.

[Gregg]

Another group of dullards that think they are so special are locksmiths.  Although there are virtually zero legislated requirements other than a business license, they think their trade is so special that they make up their own rules that have no substance. 

[tggzzz]

Talk of some of these out of the training course electricians reminded me of Isaac Asimov and the Foundation books.

I found and find his 1957  novella "Profession" more useful; I recommend it to anyone thinking about career futures. Especially good w.r.t. the engineer vs technician debates.

It is available online.

[vk6zgo]

Yeah, sparkies do tend to have a jumped up sense of self importance, particularly now they have all that complex test equipment to play with!!
And yet I've seen more utter botchery on domestic wiring installs than in any other electrical or electronic systems!

If the wiring is neat, it was some illicit stuff done by a Technician------not an Engineer, their stuff is as "bodgie" as a sparky!

Just so.

Once, 40 years ago, some of my wiring inside a prototype electric door mechanism was criticised as not being especially neat. I agreed, pointing out that I wasn't a technician. I also pointed out something in the design that a technician might have missed. The designer didn't want to acknowledge the issue; the prototype was never reliable.

If I need a diagnosis of a medical problem, I want a doctor to do it. If I want blood taken or a leg plastered, I want a nurse to do it. Vive la difference!

Oh, don't worry, a tech won't miss the problem a few years down the track when the thing fails.
In the meantime, the manufacturer will have "moved on" & be happy having ignored that pesky EE back then!

EEs can definitely miss things, though---one such chap of my acquaintance, designed a really nice, neat interface to convert a output contact function from a remote control from "made for the duration of the function" to "momentary".

It worked fine, except that he had assumed that the remote control was "made for the duration, etc", when in fact, it always was "momentary".

He was a nice bloke, with rather "a lot on his plate", so we just modified the remote control to match his interface.
There were only two such remote controls in existence, so, except for the time used for the (simple) mod, accommodating
 his interface was pretty much "revenue neutral", & arguably offered a better match to the "domestic" CD player it now controlled, than a basic relay closure did.

[coppice]

Talk of some of these out of the training course electricians reminded me of Isaac Asimov and the Foundation books.

I found and find his 1957  novella "Profession" more useful; I recommend it to anyone thinking about career futures. Especially good w.r.t. the engineer vs technician debates.

I'm interested in why you are attracted to that story. You can read so many things into it. Its a totally unrealistic tale. The Social Scientists are second rate, and not much much lower.

[tggzzz]

Talk of some of these out of the training course electricians reminded me of Isaac Asimov and the Foundation books.

I found and find his 1957  novella "Profession" more useful; I recommend it to anyone thinking about career futures. Especially good w.r.t. the engineer vs technician debates.

I'm interested in why you are attracted to that story. You can read so many things into it. Its a totally unrealistic tale. The Social Scientists are second rate, and not much much lower.

A fiction story being unrealistic? Who would have thought it?!

The very significant difference between someone that is

• taught how to work on existing equipment and follow best practices
• creates new types of equipment and defines best practices

Both are beneficial and necessary.

The required strengths (skills/personality/competence) and allowable weaknesses are completely different.

Be aware of the differences, and choose accordingly.

Too many people on this forum don't understand the differences between engineers/doctors and technicians/nurses. That story is an alternative way of getting the concept across

[NiHaoMike]

If you think electricians are bad, try dealing with HVAC guys.

The HVAC tech I know (now an embedded software engineer at Daikin) is very nice. But she's about my age so definitely not the average HVAC tech at the time.

The worst bit is.  The scope of the regulations shifted from "roof top solar" and "grid tie" inverters to include any and all energy storage systems whether they feed in or not, regardless of voltage, power, AC or DC.  They are ALL covered.

My basic questions was, given my limited installation purpose, how much of it applies to me?  What do I NEED to do, such that I don't get ripped off paying for an OTT install I don't need.

This goes off the rails because the inverter I am installing is part of a range which, can, technically be configured to "feed out" the AC IN.  I am still left unsure if this is or is not the case.  The inverter is part of a large range of inverters which go from 12V/500W up to 48V/5000W and parallel and series way up further.   Some units are designed for caravans and some for full rooftop solar rigs.

Install the batteries and inverter on a cart with wheels and use ordinary plugs and sockets for connecting to the mains and load, then it would be a UPS and not part of the building.

[paulca]

Install the batteries and inverter on a cart with wheels and use ordinary plugs and sockets for connecting to the mains and load, then it would be a UPS and not part of the building.

I am tempted to run it this way, at very least in the interim.  Plugged into a plug socket if and only if/when I want to charge the batteries. 

It arrived.  It's tiny.  It's the size of loaf of bread.  I thought it was the size of a suitcase!  I am still waiting on the other 4 cells to arrive before I can even attempt to power it on.

It's not a permanent fixed installation on either end.  It would exactly like I had just parked the caravan in the drive way and connected it's ESS system to the wall socket to charge it.

There is a real potential the DNO phones me back and just says it's so small they aren't interested, knock myself out.

[MT]

Take a razor blade, gently cut your self somewhere on your hand so you "slowly drip" bleed, now take a 9volt or even a 1,5V battery and let the poles go into the cut.

Now, the TREMENDOUS pain you will feel in you "entire arm" is profoundly different from a AC voltage pain , like temporary licking on a 240 outlet.