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Electroboom: How Right IS Veritasium?! Don't Electrons Push Each Other??

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Naej:

--- Quote from: imo on June 30, 2022, 11:06:10 am ---
--- Quote from: electrodacus on June 29, 2022, 11:27:22 pm ---..
This is just plain wrong.
..
Electrical energy can only travel through a conductor. And yes air can become a conductor but not at 20Vdc and 1m distance.

--- End quote ---

"Electrical energy" does not travel through a conductor. In the conductor the E field is almost zero, and the electrons move or drift in the conductor with speeds like a couple of cm in a second..

--- End quote ---
Yes. Also it travels through a conductor. Electron's potential energy is huge, remember that 1V=12000 Kelvin, so their tiny drift velocity has almost no impact whatsoever.

aetherist:

--- Quote from: Alex Eisenhut on June 29, 2022, 03:00:32 am ---
--- Quote from: aetherist on June 29, 2022, 02:11:00 am ---neutrinos (photons that have formed pairs)(sharing the same helical central axis)(180 deg out of phase).
--- End quote ---
If you listen closely, you can hear Richard Feynman yelling hoarsely.
--- End quote ---
I think i got that from Conrad Ranzan. He probly got it from JG Williamson.
The 2 photons cancel each other's em radiation in the near field & in the far field.
it is this that makes a neutrino such a slippery customer.

electrodacus:
You may have noticed that I always use the term "electrical energy" and not just generic energy unless I forgot do do so.

There are two electrical energy storage devices the capacitor and the inductor.

An ideal capacitor and ideal inductor can store energy indefinitely. The real ones have leakage.

You get DC voltage at the terminals of a charged capacitor. An AC rated capacitor is not polarized but if you disconnect it from the circuit you will measure a DC voltage.

A constant electrical current traveling through a conductor will result in a constant magnetic field and if the conductor has any resistance you have thermal energy loss.
This thermal energy loss is the electromagnetic radiation that many of you mention. The frequency of this will be in the THz region as it will be infrared to even visible if we are talking about the lamp filament that is also a wire.
So you have a DC voltage supply like a charged capacitor that produces a DC current when electrical energy travels through the wire and all this is radiated as electromagnetic energy somewhere in the THz region (broad spectrum) if wire has any resistance.

In this isolated system if you start with say 1Wh of electrical energy stored in the capacitor and you close the switch all energy will end up radiated as electromagnetic radiation. There will be temporarily energy stored in the magnetic field around the wire and line capacity but all of this is conservative so will end up radiated from the wire/lamp. Wire also has some mass so there will be some thermal storage effect but if you leave the system cool back to starting temperature all energy is radiated all that 1Wh you started with.

Now if the system is not isolated say you have a strong magnet near the wire then that magnet may move either attracted towards the wire or pushed away so there is some work done and that energy needed to do that work will not be radiated. So say 0.01Wh worth of work is done when moving the magnet some distance then only 0.99Wh will end up radiated.

aetherist:

--- Quote from: hamster_nz on June 29, 2022, 10:33:53 pm ---
--- Quote from: aetherist on June 29, 2022, 09:34:42 pm ---Electonists are the opposite – we have one at present (me) – but praps in the end everyone will be an electonist.
--- End quote ---
Does your theory predict any testable difference from 'conventional' theory? 
--- End quote ---
A good test would be to measure the speed of electricity along a plain bar, & to compare that to the speed of electricity along a threaded bar.
A threaded bar should be slower by the extra distance up & over the threads.
--- Quote from: hamster_nz on June 29, 2022, 10:33:53 pm ---Are you sure you are not just looking at a different perspective of the same underlying process (e.g. Matrix mechanics vs Wave function vs Path Integral Formulation in Quantum Theory)?
--- End quote ---
Yes i am sure. But i don’t know what thems things are.
--- Quote from: hamster_nz on June 29, 2022, 10:33:53 pm ---I'm not really seeking any real answers to such questions, but it is along the same line of thoughts as "electrons pushing each other" vs "electrons interacting via a field". The different between "each elementary charge reaching out across all of space to give each other nudges" vs "charges moving based on the local gradient of the field". Does one of does models represent the underlying physical reality, or is the reality completely different?
--- End quote ---
Electrons pushing is the same thing as interacting via a field. Both are via a field.
But some old (electron) electricity pundits try to wiggle out of their impossible pushing scenario by invoking very long range interactions. Nope, it duznt help. Still impossible, koz electrons have mass. If electrons didn’t have any mass then pushing would work ok.
--- Quote from: hamster_nz on June 29, 2022, 10:33:53 pm --- For me, magnetism is key decider that makes me think the field view is the more real of the two - static charges pushing/pulling on each other is fine and for the most part equivalent to fields, but making charges experience a force at right angles to their direction of travel requires something more.
--- End quote ---
Ivor Catt & Forrest Bishop explain that charge is what remains when 2 TEM slabs of Heaviside energy current propagate in contrary directions.
In other words there is no such  thing as charge. It is all em, both charge & magnetism existing together at all times.
--- Quote from: hamster_nz on June 29, 2022, 10:33:53 pm --- Being dyslexic and having no real concept of "left handedness" vs "right handedness" makes this doubly hard for me - how come the universe obeys "Flemings Left Hand Rule"? In physics is seems to be just the nature of things because matrix multiplication is not commutative, but it also echos on through things like "charge conjugation parity symmetry" and CP violations. :-//
--- End quote ---
I don’t understand that stuff. But left hand rule & right hand rule are just math conventions, not a part of nature.

hamster_nz:

--- Quote from: imo on June 30, 2022, 11:06:10 am ---
--- Quote from: electrodacus on June 29, 2022, 11:27:22 pm ---..
This is just plain wrong.
..
Electrical energy can only travel through a conductor. And yes air can become a conductor but not at 20Vdc and 1m distance.

--- End quote ---

"Electrical energy" does not travel through a conductor. In the conductor the E field is almost zero, and the electrons move or drift in the conductor with speeds like a couple of cm in a second..

--- End quote ---
Be careful! some here are very attached to the idea that electrons carry their potential energy around with them somehow. They believe that an electron in a wire at -20V is somehow measurable different to an electron at 0V, because it has 'more potential energy' and can do more work.

And a smaller number are very firm in the belief that electrical energy only flows in conductors, to the point that they will argue energy can't pass through a capacitor - with logic along the lines of energy is volts x amps, and because an electron cannot pass through a capacitor, then no energy can be transferred. Then then in an act of cognitive dissidence use inductors and capacitors in a transmission line model to 'explain' how things can be coupled and how energy was transferred across the 1m gap in Veritasium's experiment.

The opposing view, that that gradient of the electric field along the electron's path that determines how much work an electron can do, which infers that the energy is transferred though the field and not by the charge in the wire, doesn't get a look in...

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