General > General Technical Chat
Electroboom: How Right IS Veritasium?! Don't Electrons Push Each Other??
hamster_nz:
--- Quote from: aetherist on June 30, 2022, 10:20:46 pm ---
--- Quote from: hamster_nz on June 29, 2022, 10:33:53 pm --- Being dyslexic and having no real concept of "left handedness" vs "right handedness" makes this doubly hard for me - how come the universe obeys "Flemings Left Hand Rule"? In physics is seems to be just the nature of things because matrix multiplication is not commutative, but it also echos on through things like "charge conjugation parity symmetry" and CP violations. :-//
--- End quote ---
I don’t understand that stuff. But left hand rule & right hand rule are just math conventions, not a part of nature.
--- End quote ---
How dyslexic me wishes this was true, but sadly it isn't.
electrodacus:
--- Quote from: hamster_nz on June 30, 2022, 10:23:17 pm ---"Electrical energy" does not travel through a conductor. In the conductor the E field is almost zero, and the electrons move or drift in the conductor with speeds like a couple of cm in a second..
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Be careful! some here are very attached to the idea that electrons carry their potential energy around with them somehow. They believe that an electron in a wire at +20V is somehow measurable different to an electron at 0V, because it has 'more potential energy' and can do more work.
And a smaller number are very firm in the belief that electrical energy only flows in conductors, to the point that they will argue energy can't pass through a capacitor - with logic along the lines of energy is volts x amps, and because an electron cannot pass through a capacitor, then no energy can be transferred. Then then in an act of cognitive dissidence use inductors and capacitors in a transmission line model to 'explain' how things can be coupled and how energy was transferred across the 1m gap in Veritasium's experiment.
The opposing view, that that gradient of the electric field along the electron's path that determines how much work an electron can do, which infers that the energy is transferred though the field and not by the charge in the wire, doesn't get a look in...
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I will suggest reading my last post https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/electroboom-how-right-is-veritasium!-dont-electrons-push-each-other/msg4271941/#msg4271941
There was no energy transferred across the 1m gap other than the small amount of electromagnetic radiation (infrared mostly) that just slightly increased the temperature of the conductor.
You may also want to read my older post still in this thread where I explained what happens if you just move the switch without closing the switch as in that case you still see some energy dissipated by the lamp but that is mechanical energy that to provide to the circuit being converted to electron flow and since there is resistance dissipated as thermal radiation (THz region).
The charged capacitor or rechargeable battery will contain the same amount of energy before you start moving the switch and after so all radiated energy was due to mechanical energy input being converted in to electrical current flow and then wasted as heat (electromagnetic radiation) due to resistance in the circuit.
Naej:
--- Quote from: hamster_nz on June 30, 2022, 10:23:17 pm ---
--- Quote from: imo on June 30, 2022, 11:06:10 am ---
--- Quote from: electrodacus on June 29, 2022, 11:27:22 pm ---..
This is just plain wrong.
..
Electrical energy can only travel through a conductor. And yes air can become a conductor but not at 20Vdc and 1m distance.
--- End quote ---
"Electrical energy" does not travel through a conductor. In the conductor the E field is almost zero, and the electrons move or drift in the conductor with speeds like a couple of cm in a second..
--- End quote ---
Be careful! some here are very attached to the idea that electrons carry their potential energy around with them somehow. They believe that an electron in a wire at -20V is somehow measurable different to an electron at 0V, because it has 'more potential energy' and can do more work.
And a smaller number are very firm in the belief that electrical energy only flows in conductors, to the point that they will argue energy can't pass through a capacitor - with logic along the lines of energy is volts x amps, and because an electron cannot pass through a capacitor, then no energy can be transferred. Then then in an act of cognitive dissidence use inductors and capacitors in a transmission line model to 'explain' how things can be coupled and how energy was transferred across the 1m gap in Veritasium's experiment.
The opposing view, that that gradient of the electric field along the electron's path that determines how much work an electron can do, which infers that the energy is transferred though the field and not by the charge in the wire, doesn't get a look in...
--- End quote ---
If you deny potential energy, what other forms of energy do you deny?
Here's a list: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy
hamster_nz:
--- Quote from: electrodacus on June 30, 2022, 10:46:11 pm ---I will suggest reading my last post https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/electroboom-how-right-is-veritasium!-dont-electrons-push-each-other/msg4271941/#msg4271941
There was no energy transferred across the 1m gap other than the small amount of electromagnetic radiation (infrared mostly) that just slightly increased the temperature of the conductor.
--- End quote ---
And yet the oscilloscope on Derek's experiment voltage at the bulb before the bulk of the voltage can flow around the full length of the wire/pipe... so it either when along the wire/pipe at faster than light speeds, or the energy went across the 1m gap.
Or I guess you can argue that the experimental method was flawed, because it is inconsistent with your expectations.
hamster_nz:
--- Quote from: Naej on June 30, 2022, 11:16:03 pm ---If you deny potential energy, what other forms of energy do you deny?
Here's a list: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy
--- End quote ---
Does a 10kg bowling ball at 10m above the ground "have" potential energy? Or does it have the potential to gain that energy if you let it fall 10m?
It depends on the definition of 'h' in the gravitational potential energy formula of U=mgh. Height isn't an absolute thing, it is measured between two points.
If I move that bowling ball slightly to the right, where there might be a 10m deep well... has it suddenly gained twice as much potential energy just from me moving it less than a meter? In the formula 'm' and 'g' stays the same, but 'h' has changed because the reference point for the measurement has changed.
Things like how many kJ are in your sandwich (chemical potential energy), or how many megatons of TNT are in your warhead (nuclear potential energy) don't change just because you move your lunchbox by 1m or launch your missile. Some measures like kinetic, electrical and gravitational potential energy depend on what chosen reference for "zero energy" is.
If I am on a train travelling at 100km/h and drop a bowling ball on my foot, does it hurt more than when the train is stopped, even though when the train is in motion the ball is travelling at over 27m/s?
I guess you could chose to use the earth's surface as reference point for kinetic and electrical energy (making the assumption that the Earth is electrically neutral and stationary), and you could use the center of the Earth as your reference point to give a more 'absolute' measure of gravitational potential energy.
That may work for you, unless perhaps you are in the business of launching bowling balls into the sun, in which case they have far more kinetic and potential energy than those calculation would suggest... :-//
EDIT: on second thoughts, maybe you can establish of what electrically "neutral" is using electrostatic attraction/repulsion, I guess, but would be pretty hard to achieve a useful reference for single digit voltages...
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