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Electroboom: How Right IS Veritasium?! Don't Electrons Push Each Other??
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hamster_nz:

--- Quote from: electrodacus on July 01, 2022, 03:10:21 am ---There is no difference between those two circuits. Due to symmetry no electrons will travel through that middle wire. As far as that circuit is concerned is like having two batteries in series so 2x the voltage connected to a 20Ohm resistor.

--- End quote ---

How about if I twiddle the topology a little, so the circuit is the same but with joined or crossing wires in the center:


--- Code: ---      +----+         +----+
      |    |         |    |
      |    \         |    \
     ---   /        ---   /
      -    \         -    \
      |    |         |    |
 +----+----+    +---------+
 |    |         |    |
 \    +-->GND   \    +-->GND
 /   ---        /   ---
 \    -         \    -
 |    |         |    |
 +----+         +----+

--- End code ---
Once again I'm sure you agree that in either schematic there is no difference in the energy of each electron leaving the lower battery. The currents in each wire and voltages across each element are the same in both circuits.

In the right hand circuit, where the wires are not joined, an electron will do twice as much work as it moves around the circuit, compared to how much work it has to do in the left-hand circuit.
electrodacus:

--- Quote from: hamster_nz on July 01, 2022, 04:41:02 am ---How about if I twiddle the topology a little, so the circuit is the same but with joined or crossing wires in the center:


--- Code: ---      +----+         +----+
      |    |         |    |
      |    \         |    \
     ---   /        ---   /
      -    \         -    \
      |    |         |    |
 +----+----+    +---------+
 |    |         |    |
 \    +-->GND   \    +-->GND
 /   ---        /   ---
 \    -         \    -
 |    |         |    |
 +----+         +----+

--- End code ---
Once again I'm sure you agree that in either schematic there is no difference in the energy of each electron leaving the lower battery. The currents in each wire and voltages across each element are the same in both circuits.

In the right hand circuit, where the wires are not joined, an electron will do twice as much work as it moves around the circuit, compared to how much work it has to do in the left-hand circuit.

--- End quote ---

:) Your two new circuits are exactly the same as the first two.
Same amount of work is done in both cases.
Say each battery is 10V. The current is the same 1A in both cases as due to symmetry the two will work the same.
You can look at the left one and see them as individual 10V batteries connected to 10Ohm resistors so 1A  or you can look at the one on the right and say 20V (two batteries in series) connected to a 20Ohm resistor again 1A
Total power in both cases is the same 10V * 1A * 2 = 20W  or 20V * 1A = 20W


As for the capacitor instead of battery example you can have the left diagram where you can say 100 electrons from capacitor A will flow in the other plate of the same capacitor and same thing for B
Or you can look at the right diagram where 100 electrons from capacitor B flows into opposite plate of capacitor A trough the two resistors and 100 electrons from capacitor A flow directly in the capacitor B plate.
In both cases you end up with 200 electrons on all 4 capacitor plates.
Naej:

--- Quote from: hamster_nz on July 01, 2022, 02:54:30 am ---
--- Quote from: Naej on July 01, 2022, 12:40:51 am ---Does it mean you deny all forms of energy exist?

--- End quote ---
Of course not. I am of the view that some forms of energy can be attributed of the thing (e.g. kJ in a sandwich, energy stored in a spring, energy in a capacitor), but other forms of energy cannot be determined without reference to the wider environment or the larger system around it (e.g. a bowling ball on a moving train has different kinetic energy when calculated with reference to the train, or the ground under the train).

Likewise for an electron drifting along in a current carrying wire. It has a small amount of kinetic energy, but my view is how much work that electron can do depends on the electric field outside of the wire.

Take this poorly drawn ASCIIart circuit:

--- Code: ---
 +----+
 |    |
 |    \
---   /  10 ohm
 -    \
 |    |
 +----+--> GND
 |    |
 |    \
---   /  10 ohm
 -    \
 |    |
 +-----

--- End code ---
The top battery is supplying electrons (and power) to the top resistor, the bottom battery is supplying electrons (and power) to the bottom resistor. There is zero net current in the center wire, the one connected to GND.

What happens when the middle wire is removed?


--- Code: ---
 +----+
 |    |
 |    \
---   /  10 ohm
 -    \
 |    |
 |    +--> GND
 |    |
 |    \
---   /  10 ohm
 -    \
 |    |
 +----+

--- End code ---
Do the electron leaving the bottom battery's negative terminal suddenly realize that they have to do twice the work (pass through both resistors), so carry twice the energy for the trip? What about those electrons already in transit? Do they use up their energy and stop half way?  This is a problem if you believe that the electrons are responsible for transferring the energy.

Are any of the voltages or currents any different than before? If not, how can the electrons carry more energy?

--- End quote ---
With the conventions you chose, the energy is carried in the exterior wires and stop at the end of the resistor.
The situation doesn't change when you remove the wire, so there is no problem (of course).

And if you twiddle the topology it's also the same, because you change neither the potential nor the currents.
m k:

--- Quote from: electrodacus on June 30, 2022, 05:34:08 pm ---
--- Quote from: m k on June 30, 2022, 10:38:22 am ---How is flat and solid copper electrical heater reheating its cooled circle?

--- End quote ---

I do not understand the question. Can you elaborate ?

--- End quote ---

Reheating is tuned by underlying energy and easily visualized with thermal camera.
Nominal Animal:
(If you want to do text graphics, Unicode Box Drawing glyphs – ┌ ─ ┬ ┐ │ ├ ┼ ┤ └ ┴ ┘ ╔ ═ ╦ ╗ ║ ╠ ╬ ╣ ╚ ╩ ╝ ╪ ╫ ╧ ╤ ╢ ╟ ╞ ╡ – work fine here, and are also found in code page 473 (old DOS, Windows).  There are also diagonals – ╲ ╱ ╳ – and other useful stuff in Unicode, but that subset of box drawing glyphs tends to be very widely supported across environments.  Here, you'll want to use either [tt]...[/tt] or [code]...[/code] around the graphics, so that the output uses a fixed-width font.)
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