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| Electroboom: How Right IS Veritasium?! Don't Electrons Push Each Other?? |
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| PlainName:
--- Quote ---There was no energy transferred across the 1m gap other than the small amount of electromagnetic radiation (infrared mostly) that just slightly increased the temperature of the conductor. --- End quote --- Hello? Is this some new 'fact' you just pulled out of nowhere? Did anyone in that video have anything that could measure temperature? Did they give before and after readings? Was it even discussed? It might be probable that pushing current through one thing raises its temperature and causes IR radiation, and that could very very slightly raise the temperature of everything else around it. But surely were are talking unmeasurable effects here. Unless you actually did this or can show workings that it's above even noise of the noise level, you're just once again making up stuff on the fly and then stating it as fact. And, no doubt, you will repeat this now well-known 'fact' in later posts as proof of something. |
| electrodacus:
--- Quote from: dunkemhigh on July 01, 2022, 12:38:29 pm --- --- Quote ---There was no energy transferred across the 1m gap other than the small amount of electromagnetic radiation (infrared mostly) that just slightly increased the temperature of the conductor. --- End quote --- Hello? Is this some new 'fact' you just pulled out of nowhere? Did anyone in that video have anything that could measure temperature? Did they give before and after readings? Was it even discussed? It might be probable that pushing current through one thing raises its temperature and causes IR radiation, and that could very very slightly raise the temperature of everything else around it. But surely were are talking unmeasurable effects here. Unless you actually did this or can show workings that it's above even noise of the noise level, you're just once again making up stuff on the fly and then stating it as fact. And, no doubt, you will repeat this now well-known 'fact' in later posts as proof of something. --- End quote --- There where questions about electromagnetic radiation and while there is electromagnetic radiation in the form of infrared (THz) it has nothing to do with what it is measured in Derek's experiment. As you say that small amount of infrared photons and the even smaller amount that hits the other conductor 1m away has no measurable influence tho there is a small real effect. What is measured is the rearrange of the charges. Transmission line has capacitance and energy as I mentioned many times before donse not flow through a capacitor but in to a capacitor when charged and out of the capacitor when discharged. So the point I was making was that in a steady state DC circuit the radiated energy is as electromagnetic energy what you will normally call thermal radiation. We do not even need any equipment as we can sense this for a Tungsten wire heated at around 2800 to 3000K inside a vacuum glass tube (incandescent light bulb). You can send a DC current through that and all energy will be dissipated as a broad spectrum infrared and a bit of in visible light so in the THz region. The only way to transfer energy from a battery or charged capacitor is trough wire as to discharge the charged capacitor the electrons need to exit the plate with excess electrons and enter the plate with deficit of electrons. When both plates have equal number of free electrons the capacitor is discharged so it stores no energy. If electrical energy could be transferred through a capacitor then the capacitor could not store energy. The proof that energy travels through wire is as simple as having an open switch in the loop. Without closing that switch you can not transfer electrical energy to the load. You can transform the switch in to a mechanical to electrical generator by moving the switch contacts but electrical energy generate will still travel through wires. |
| hamster_nz:
--- Quote from: Naej on July 01, 2022, 09:20:52 am --- --- Quote from: hamster_nz on July 01, 2022, 02:54:30 am --- --- Quote from: Naej on July 01, 2022, 12:40:51 am ---Does it mean you deny all forms of energy exist? --- End quote --- Of course not. I am of the view that some forms of energy can be attributed of the thing (e.g. kJ in a sandwich, energy stored in a spring, energy in a capacitor), but other forms of energy cannot be determined without reference to the wider environment or the larger system around it (e.g. a bowling ball on a moving train has different kinetic energy when calculated with reference to the train, or the ground under the train). Likewise for an electron drifting along in a current carrying wire. It has a small amount of kinetic energy, but my view is how much work that electron can do depends on the electric field outside of the wire. Take this poorly drawn ASCIIart circuit: --- Code: --- +----+ | | | \ --- / 10 ohm - \ | | +----+--> GND | | | \ --- / 10 ohm - \ | | +----- --- End code --- The top battery is supplying electrons (and power) to the top resistor, the bottom battery is supplying electrons (and power) to the bottom resistor. There is zero net current in the center wire, the one connected to GND. What happens when the middle wire is removed? --- Code: --- +----+ | | | \ --- / 10 ohm - \ | | | +--> GND | | | \ --- / 10 ohm - \ | | +----+ --- End code --- Do the electron leaving the bottom battery's negative terminal suddenly realize that they have to do twice the work (pass through both resistors), so carry twice the energy for the trip? What about those electrons already in transit? Do they use up their energy and stop half way? This is a problem if you believe that the electrons are responsible for transferring the energy. Are any of the voltages or currents any different than before? If not, how can the electrons carry more energy? --- End quote --- With the conventions you chose, the energy is carried in the exterior wires and stop at the end of the resistor. The situation doesn't change when you remove the wire, so there is no problem (of course). And if you twiddle the topology it's also the same, because you change neither the potential nor the currents. --- End quote --- Agreed - they are identical. Now as you state "the energy flows in wires" - try to answer how much energy is flowing in each wire in both pictures. There are only three values - 0, 1x the energy dissipated by each resistor or 2x the energy dissipated by each resistor. And we both agree that if you assign 0 power to any wire, then that wire can be removed, because it isn't carrying energy. I can't get a consistent solution to this - one where the energy flowing in each wire doesn't change when I remove the wire in the middle, that is carrying zero energy. Not that I really expect to, because the energy isn't in the wires. If you can help me out with consistent "energy in each wire" numbers I'ld appreciate it. (I do have a different solution that sits well with me, and solves this correctly and consistently, but it implies that the energy is not in the wires...) |
| Naej:
--- Quote from: hamster_nz on July 01, 2022, 09:13:25 pm ---Agreed - they are identical. Now as you state "the energy flows in wires" - try to answer how much energy is flowing in each wire in both pictures. There are only three values - 0, 1x the energy dissipated by each resistor or 2x the energy dissipated by each resistor. And we both agree that if you assign 0 power to any wire, then that wire can be removed, because it isn't carrying energy. I can't get a consistent solution to this - one where the energy flowing in each wire doesn't change when I remove the wire in the middle, that is carrying zero energy. Not that I really expect to, because the energy isn't in the wires. If you can help me out with consistent "energy in each wire" numbers I'ld appreciate it. --- End quote --- It's 1x in the exterior wires and 0 in the interior ones. Never 2. The wire in the middle is an interior one. (You can't remove a wire if the intensity is not zero.) |
| hamster_nz:
--- Quote from: Naej on July 01, 2022, 09:23:58 pm --- --- Quote from: hamster_nz on July 01, 2022, 09:13:25 pm ---Agreed - they are identical. Now as you state "the energy flows in wires" - try to answer how much energy is flowing in each wire in both pictures. There are only three values - 0, 1x the energy dissipated by each resistor or 2x the energy dissipated by each resistor. And we both agree that if you assign 0 power to any wire, then that wire can be removed, because it isn't carrying energy. I can't get a consistent solution to this - one where the energy flowing in each wire doesn't change when I remove the wire in the middle, that is carrying zero energy. Not that I really expect to, because the energy isn't in the wires. If you can help me out with consistent "energy in each wire" numbers I'ld appreciate it. --- End quote --- It's 1x in the exterior wires and 0 in the interior ones. Never 2. The wire in the middle is an interior one. (You can't remove a wire if the intensity is not zero.) --- End quote --- My thinking is that if I remove the upper wire, in one diagram 1x the energy stops flowing, but in the other diagram 2x the energy stops, so if the energy is in the wire, then for one diagram the number must be 1x the other 2x. Where is that idea flawed? It can be built and bench-tested if desired... |
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