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Electroboom: How Right IS Veritasium?! Don't Electrons Push Each Other??

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hamster_nz:

--- Quote from: electrodacus on July 02, 2022, 02:30:22 am ---
--- Quote from: hamster_nz on July 01, 2022, 11:43:19 pm ---
So you firmly believe that a different quantity of energy is flowing in the top wire, even though the currents and voltages are the same through each element?

And removing a wire that carries no energy is resposible for this difference?

--- End quote ---

What are you talking about ?
By top wire I hope you mean the wire between the positive of top battery and top resistor ?

If you remove that in first circuit then obviously can not be any current trough that wire as it is missing and so also no current from the top battery and no current through the top resistor.
But since there is a wire in the middle the lower resistor and battery will see a current 1A if battery is 10V on a 10Ohm resistor so 10W total as only half the circuit is closed circuit.

In second diagram since the middle wire is not present removing the top wire means no current at all and so no energy is being used.

--- End quote ---

The question is really simple. How much energy is flowing through the highlighted wire on the left and right diagrams. Sorry if I am not stating it clearly enough.

I say 1W (left) and 2W (right).

electrodacus:

--- Quote from: hamster_nz on July 02, 2022, 02:47:46 am ---The question is really simple. How much energy is flowing through the highlighted wire on the left and right diagrams. Sorry if I am not stating it clearly enough.

I say 1W (left) and 2W (right).

--- End quote ---

I better understand your confusion now.

What flows through that wire is electrons. A stream of electrons is defined as current.
In both cases the same amount of current will flow.


Those two batteries are in series and each of them provides 1W to that circuit and that is valid in both circuits due to symmetry.  You did not mentioned but I will assume the two batteries are identical.


So 1W of electrical power flows out of each battery 2W in total and that is the case in both circuits. 
Due to symmetry there is zero and I mean zero difference between the two cases.
That extra wire plays absolutely no role is just decorative.   

hamster_nz:

--- Quote from: electrodacus on July 02, 2022, 03:04:23 am ---
--- Quote from: hamster_nz on July 02, 2022, 02:47:46 am ---The question is really simple. How much energy is flowing through the highlighted wire on the left and right diagrams. Sorry if I am not stating it clearly enough.

I say 1W (left) and 2W (right).

--- End quote ---

I better understand your confusion now.

What flows through that wire is electrons. A stream of electrons is defined as current.
In both cases the same amount of current will flow.


Those two batteries are in series and each of them provides 1W to that circuit and that is valid in both circuits due to symmetry.  You did not mentioned but I will assume the two batteries are identical.


So 1W of electrical power flows out of each battery 2W in total and that is the case in both circuits. 
Due to symmetry there is zero and I mean zero difference between the two cases.
That extra wire plays absolutely no role is just decorative.

--- End quote ---

I am not asking about energy in batteries or in the resistors. You are adamant that energy flows in wires. In both diagrams how much energy was flowing in the top wire?

My suggested test to determine this  is to remove that top wire and see how it changes the power disappated by the resistors.

If it differs then the energy flow is different between the two circuits, even though the voltages and currents are the same.

electrodacus:

--- Quote from: hamster_nz on July 02, 2022, 03:51:22 am ---I am not asking about energy in batteries or in the resistors. You are adamant that energy flows in wires. In both diagrams how much energy was flowing in the top wire?

My suggested test to determine this  is to remove that top wire and see how it changes the power disappated by the resistors.

If it differs then the energy flow is different between the two circuits, even though the voltages and currents are the same.

--- End quote ---

Do you not understand that there is zero difference between the two variants you show ?
You already agreed that no current flows through that middle wire so that wire plays no electrical role due to circuit symmetry.

Removing that top wire (the one you marked with yellow) makes absolutely no sense. What will that prove or test ?

Here is a copper atom that has 29 electrons but the one that is important is the one on energy level 4 that is much more free to move.


Here is an animation of what those free electrons do in a neutrally charged wire (so no current flow through the conductor).
The free electrons move but in random direction so it all cancels out no net current flow through the wire.


And here is a copper wire that transports energy so there is a stream of electrons / current flow through the wire

Same amount of electrons leave the battery from the negative terminal (the one where red wire is connected) as they enter on the positive side but they delivered the energy to the circuit in this case all energy was dissipated in the wire.

aetherist:

--- Quote from: Nominal Animal on June 30, 2022, 01:39:21 am ---
--- Quote from: aetherist on June 29, 2022, 03:41:38 am ---Electons are only found on a surface (& on a nucleus). Probly only on metals. Or possibly on any conductor.
--- End quote ---
Nah.  Electons are the magic particles that cause electronic voting machines to occasionally flip a vote to a candidate the voting machine provides prefers.
Or possibly they are the name of the species that have infiltrated our political systems, replacing our politicians.  All hail electons!
All kidding aside, unless your model can describe and predict how an STM microscope works and can image individuals atoms  – really, their outermost electrons – (as they have been used for extensively since 1981), it is not a realistic model at all.

STM results are basically in perfect agreement with current models on the structure of matter; so much so that simulators using current models of electrons (especially DFT and Hartree–Fock method, in software packages like VASP and Dalton) yield results that are basically in perfect agreement with STM images.

The only reason I have any trust in current electron models is exactly that even with quite crude approximations (especially the Born–Oppenheimer one, which is heavily used in simulations), simulations produce extremely useful predictions of the structure and behaviour of physical matter, from noble gases to insulators to semiconductors to metals.  (I know, because I write such code myself, although I tend to the more classical side with large numbers of particles and models that only approximate the interactions, instead of the Ab Initio QM models.)

Since the very integrated circuits you use right now, reading this text, were developed only with the aid of these or very similar simulator software, it would be hilariously self-contradictory to completely reject current models of the structure of matter (including electrons) that have brought us these very devices we rely on.  Those models and theories brought us the devices we use right now.

(Side note: No, I'm not irritated at someone having a new theory.  I'm just a bit irritated of people choosing to ignore the vast amount of hard work involved in getting us this far.  It wasn't just these certain people having good ideas and others agreeing and going with that; it was countless hours of work, countless ideas and models tested and rejected, with the current ones being the ones among those that ended up best predicting the results of real world experiments, physical behaviour.  Saying that they don't believe in that work is, well, irritating.  Like someone reading a newspaper and saying they don't believe in reading.  It is also important to realize that e.g. special relativity did not "replace" Newtonian mechanics.  The two are the same at "human scale"; it is when velocities become a significant fraction of speed of light (in vacuum), or we have extremely heavy or dense objects, that special relativity starts differing from Newtonian mechanics.  So, you don't just switch to something completely different that gives completely different answers!  Just like special relativity can be used anywhere Newtonian mechanics can (producing basically the same answers), that new thing must also correctly predict the results of past experiments, with errors within the bounds of experimental errors.  Otherwise, the theory or model is just not suitable, as in useful or valid, at all.)
--- End quote ---
I doubt that my new (electon) electricity is not compatible with everything that u mentioned.

Old (electron) electricity is not compatible with at least 2 tests.
1. Old (electron) electricity can't explain why insulation on a wire slows the speed of electricity.
2. Old (electron) electricity can't explain why the discharge of a capacitor is at a half of the voltage for double the time.

STR is komplete krapp.

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