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Electroboom: How Right IS Veritasium?! Don't Electrons Push Each Other??

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hamster_nz:

--- Quote from: electrodacus on July 02, 2022, 04:17:57 am ---
--- Quote from: hamster_nz on July 02, 2022, 03:51:22 am ---I am not asking about energy in batteries or in the resistors. You are adamant that energy flows in wires. In both diagrams how much energy was flowing in the top wire?

My suggested test to determine this  is to remove that top wire and see how it changes the power disappated by the resistors.

If it differs then the energy flow is different between the two circuits, even though the voltages and currents are the same.

--- End quote ---

Do you not understand that there is zero difference between the two variants you show ?
You already agreed that no current flows through that middle wire so that wire plays no electrical role due to circuit symmetry.

Removing that top wire (the one you marked with yellow) makes absolutely no sense. What will that prove or test ?

Here is a copper atom that has 29 electrons but the one that is important is the one on energy level 4 that is much more free to move.


Here is an animation of what those free electrons do in a neutrally charged wire (so no current flow through the conductor).
The free electrons move but in random direction so it all cancels out no net current flow through the wire.


And here is a copper wire that transports energy so there is a stream of electrons / current flow through the wire

Same amount of electrons leave the battery from the negative terminal (the one where red wire is connected) as they enter on the positive side but they delivered the energy to the circuit in this case all energy was dissipated in the wire.

--- End quote ---

No difference? So if one battery droops a little, both circuits react the same?

To me, it seems each battery delivering energy to only one resistor in one of the circuits and both batteries to both resistors in the other....

But for a simple question, 'how much energy is flowing in the top wire?" you are being very obtuse in your answers.... is it "all the energy", or "half the total energy", or can it not be answered?

If I ask for the current flowing it is easy - the same current is flowing everywhere but the center wire that can be removed (and the GND connection also has no current).

But for some reason you are having trouble answering for energy? What's the issue?

electrodacus:

--- Quote from: hamster_nz on July 02, 2022, 05:14:07 am ---No difference? So if one battery droops a little, both circuits react the same?

To me, it seems each battery delivering energy to only one resistor in one of the circuits and both batteries to both resistors in the other....

But for a simple question, 'how much energy is flowing in the top wire?" you are being very obtuse in your answers.... is it "all the energy", or "half the total energy", or can it not be answered?

If I ask for the current flowing it is easy - the same current is flowing everywhere but the center wire that can be removed (and the GND connection also has no current).

But for some reason you are having trouble answering for energy? What's the issue?

--- End quote ---

Why will a battery "droops a little" ?  Is not this asymmetrical circuit so exactly the same battery and exactly the same resistor ?
In both circuits the batteries are in series and deliver the energy to two resistors in series. That middle wire in one of your diagrams plays no role in a perfectly symmetrical circuit.

You are the one having a trouble understanding what energy is.
You say current is the same in both circuits, that means power is also the same and that means energy which is power integrated over time is also the same.
But you ask "how much energy is flowing in the top wire" and that is an incorrect question.
The correct question will be "what is the electrical current flow through the top wire?"
or but for this bellow questions you will need to provide both a current and a wire resistance.
"what is the voltage drop on the top wire?"
"what is the power dissipated on the top wire?"
"what is the energy dissipate on the top wire?" but for this last question you will need to also provide a time interval as energy is power integrated over time.

hamster_nz:

--- Quote from: electrodacus on July 02, 2022, 05:38:07 am ---
--- Quote from: hamster_nz on July 02, 2022, 05:14:07 am ---No difference? So if one battery droops a little, both circuits react the same?

To me, it seems each battery delivering energy to only one resistor in one of the circuits and both batteries to both resistors in the other....

But for a simple question, 'how much energy is flowing in the top wire?" you are being very obtuse in your answers.... is it "all the energy", or "half the total energy", or can it not be answered?

If I ask for the current flowing it is easy - the same current is flowing everywhere but the center wire that can be removed (and the GND connection also has no current).

But for some reason you are having trouble answering for energy? What's the issue?

--- End quote ---

Why will a battery "droops a little" ?  Is not this asymmetrical circuit so exactly the same battery and exactly the same resistor ?
In both circuits the batteries are in series and deliver the energy to two resistors in series. That middle wire in one of your diagrams plays no role in a perfectly symmetrical circuit.

You are the one having a trouble understanding what energy is.
You say current is the same in both circuits, that means power is also the same and that means energy which is power integrated over time is also the same.
But you ask "how much energy is flowing in the top wire" and that is an incorrect question.
The correct question will be "what is the electrical current flow through the top wire?"
or but for this bellow questions you will need to provide both a current and a wire resistance.
"what is the voltage drop on the top wire?"
"what is the power dissipated on the top wire?"
"what is the energy dissipate on the top wire?" but for this last question you will need to also provide a time interval as energy is power integrated over time.

--- End quote ---

"You say current is the same in both circuits, that means power is also the same and that means energy which is power integrated over time is also the same."

I fully agree with this statement.

If I understand you correctly, you are also saying "You can't quantify the electrical energy flowing in wires, only current (and any power lost due to the wire resistance)", but you still believe that electrical energy flows in the wires.  In effect, the energy flows in the wires, but is is unquantifiable (or maybe it is either zero or something other than zero, but we are unable to say what that something is)

You also agree that if we cut or remove wires we can quite easily calculate and predict the difference it will make to the energy flow in the circuit, but this difference isn't the amount of the energy flowing in that wire, because the electrical energy flowing in a wire is unquantifiable,

Did I get that right? If so, it seems a pretty odd position - given that power companies seem to be quite able to charge me for how much electrical energy flows down the wire to my house, but it is impossible to say how much power is flowing in the top wire those two simple circuits.

iMo:

--- Quote from: hamster_nz on June 30, 2022, 10:23:17 pm ---
--- Quote from: imo on June 30, 2022, 11:06:10 am ---
--- Quote from: electrodacus on June 29, 2022, 11:27:22 pm ---..
This is just plain wrong.
..
Electrical energy can only travel through a conductor. And yes air can become a conductor but not at 20Vdc and 1m distance.

--- End quote ---

"Electrical energy" does not travel through a conductor. In the conductor the E field is almost zero, and the electrons move or drift in the conductor with speeds like a couple of cm in a second..

--- End quote ---
Be careful! some here are very attached to the idea that electrons carry their potential energy around with them somehow. They believe that an electron in a wire at -20V is somehow measurable different to an electron at 0V, because it has 'more potential energy' and can do more work.

And a smaller number are very firm in the belief that electrical energy only flows in conductors, to the point that they will argue energy can't pass through a capacitor - with logic along the lines of energy is volts x amps, and because an electron cannot pass through a capacitor, then no energy can be transferred. Then then in an act of cognitive dissidence use inductors and capacitors in a transmission line model to 'explain' how things can be coupled and how energy was transferred across the 1m gap in Veritasium's experiment.

The opposing view, that that gradient of the electric field along the electron's path that determines how much work an electron can do, which infers that the energy is transferred though the field and not by the charge in the wire, doesn't get a look in...

--- End quote ---

Yep, that comes from the "simplistic" model used in primary education - the model of a "water pipe", energy transferred in the tubing through the water pressure, where the electrons are depicted like the water molecules.. The fact the small tiny lightweight electrons moving in a copper wire with a drift speed of an ant cannot transfer kilowatts of energy is hard to swallow then  :D

electrodacus:

--- Quote from: hamster_nz on July 02, 2022, 06:05:34 am ---
"You say current is the same in both circuits, that means power is also the same and that means energy which is power integrated over time is also the same."

I fully agree with this statement.

If I understand you correctly, you are also saying "You can't quantify the electrical energy flowing in wires, only current (and any power lost due to the wire resistance)", but you still believe that electrical energy flows in the wires.  In effect, the energy flows in the wires, but is is unquantifiable (or maybe it is either zero or something other than zero, but we are unable to say what that something is)

You also agree that if we cut or remove wires we can quite easily calculate and predict the difference it will make to the energy flow in the circuit, but this difference isn't the amount of the energy flowing in that wire, because the electrical energy flowing in a wire is unquantifiable,

Did I get that right? If so, it seems a pretty odd position - given that power companies seem to be quite able to charge me for how much electrical energy flows down the wire to my house, but it is impossible to say how much power is flowing in the top wire those two simple circuits.

--- End quote ---

For some reason you have a hard time understanding what energy is.  It is not just you and clearly much more common that I will like.

A resistor and a wire are are the exact same thing. In electrical diagrams like the ones you showed we consider that "wire" as having zero resistance and not only but also zero inductance and zero capacitance.
In reality wires/resistors have not just resistance to current flow but also inductance and capacitance important to know and consider when using alternating current or during transients.
For steady state DC resistance is enough.

Electrical company charges you for the energy dissipated inside your house not (at least not directly for the loss on the transmission line).
If you disconnect the wires after the meter you may still pay some fixed amount just for the privilege of having the wires connected to your house but nothing for energy as you will not be using any.

Also that energy meter measures voltage at that point and the current then calculates from that power and energy.
Even the current is measured as a voltage drop on a resistor/wire.

Derek took a simple DC circuit and concentrated his attention on the initial transient while ignoring the wire/transmission line inductance and capacitance which is responsible for what he observed. But since he ignored the line capacitance (capacitor is an energy storage device) he got to completely wrong conclusions.


A capacitor is a simple as two parallel wires. A charged capacitor means that there are more free electrons on one wire than the other so there is potential electric energy stored there and the only way to make use of that stored energy is to close the circuit connecting the two capacitor plates with a wire/resistor.
Those excess electrons will flow from one plate to the other through a conductor (wire/resistor) with the stored energy being converted to thermal energy basically electromagnetic energy in the infrared region emitted from the wire/resistor.   

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