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Electroboom: How Right IS Veritasium?! Don't Electrons Push Each Other??

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AnalogueLove1867:

--- Quote from: dunkemhigh on July 04, 2022, 10:43:43 am ---
--- Quote from: AnalogueLove1867 on July 04, 2022, 10:09:55 am ---
--- Quote from: dunkemhigh on July 04, 2022, 09:34:16 am ---
--- Quote ---the terminal will push extra electrons into the object creating an overall negative charge.
--- End quote ---

What pushes them?

--- End quote ---


The chemical reaction in the battery cells which generates moving ions that release electrons to the cathode and subtract them from the anode.
This means that there is now more electrons than protons in the negative terminal and more protons than electrons in the positive terminal. Thus a potential difference is generated.

--- End quote ---

Sure, but what pushes against an electron to make it move? Is it some physical partical that actually brushes up against it, or a field or what?

--- End quote ---

It is a chemical reaction that initiates the movement of the first electron. This first electron needs to move a certain distance before its electrostatic field can push the next electron in line
via repulsion with its electrostatic field. This isn't instant because electrons have momentum due to mass and are restricted in their movements by the atoms inside the metal. All this is tiny masses, movements and fields existing INSIDE the wire.
As an analogy...
If a big heavy metal ball ( the electron ) is covered with a very light but elastic rubber coating ( the electric field ) and it collides with another similar ball, would you actually say that the rubber coating
is what caused the first and second ball to move?
Two metal balls can easily collide with each other and transfer energy without any coating.
The  rubber coating ( that is very light and so does not contribute to momentum )  acts as an elastic extension of the balls volume. The position of the coating, The speed of the coating and the energy that it transmits to another ball
is all controlled and dictated by the position and momentum of the metal balls. Exactly the same thing applies to the electrostatic field around an electron.

AnalogueLove1867:

--- Quote from: gnuarm on July 04, 2022, 12:26:56 pm ---
--- Quote from: AnalogueLove1867 on July 04, 2022, 01:51:53 am ---
--- Quote from: gnuarm on July 03, 2022, 01:43:10 pm ---
Someone is getting their fields crossed (pun intended).

--- End quote ---


Wow, people here are an interesting bunch. If you connect any insulated metallic object to a minus 9v terminal, the terminal will push extra electrons into the object creating an overall negative charge.
--- End quote ---

That is wrong.  An insulated metalic object will be polarized with more electrons further away from the battery minus terminal, and less electrons closer to the battery minus terminal, but the net charge will be unaffected. 

Where did you get this idea?  Or did you simply mistype it?



--- Quote ---When you disconnect the terminal the object will retain its charge because there is no way for the extra electrons to escape to an area with a lower concentration of electrons.
When you discharge the metallic object a small measurable current will pass from the object to ground. That is the extra electrons flowing from the object to ground. The object then returns to a 0 potential.
All conductors have some capacitance. It isn't just capacitors.

No, there is no chicken and the egg situation. In every example you can possibly give, it is a forced movement of charged particles with mass that produces a macroscopic potential difference in electronics.
The energy required to move electrons can come from chemical reactions, thermal energy, Nuclear bombardment, Radioactive decay, macroscopic motion ( turboelectric generators ), compression ( piezo-electrics) etc

--- End quote ---

Everything after your error can be ignored.

--- End quote ---


You are confusing electrostatic induction at a distance with a direct conducting connection lol. That is YOUR error! Yes, everything YOU say is probably garbage.
You are directly connecting a minus 9v battery terminal to an insulated conductor. It becomes a conducting extension of the terminal.
So during the connection extra electrons can flow from the negative terminal into the conductor until it also contains more electrons than protons and thus carries a net negative charge.
When you disconnect the conductor it retains this charge because it IS INSULATED! SUSPENDED ON A FOAM CUP ETC PLEASE USE YOUR OWN BRAIN. INSULATED FROM GROUND....
When you discharge it to ground a small current of surplus electrons flows out to ground.
This routinely happens all the time.
If a charged insulated conductor touches an identical neutral insulated conductor they both end up charged to half the capacity of the original conductor. Conservation of charge.
Monopole magnets don't exist but mono-charges certainly do.
Funny how you represent yourself with a monkey pic. An accurate depiction.

PlainName:

--- Quote ---If a big heavy metal ball ( the electron ) is covered with a very light but elastic rubber coating ( the electric field ) and it collides with another similar ball, would you actually say that the rubber coating is what caused the first and second ball to move?
--- End quote ---

Normally, no, because it's irrelevant, particularly at scale. But if the question was "how does one ball push another" then the answer would have to be "it pushes against the elastic rubber coating". That's relevant because 'elastic rubber coating' reacts differently to 'metal on metal spark-inducing ricochet', and the way in which the subsequent balls move will be different.

Further, the elastic rubber coating may have non-bounce effects - if the ball was doing this under water, for instance, perhaps the coating would give the ball buoyancy which would be important to what later balls will do.

gnuarm:

--- Quote from: AnalogueLove1867 on July 04, 2022, 12:57:54 pm ---
--- Quote from: gnuarm on July 04, 2022, 12:26:56 pm ---
--- Quote from: AnalogueLove1867 on July 04, 2022, 01:51:53 am ---
--- Quote from: gnuarm on July 03, 2022, 01:43:10 pm ---
Someone is getting their fields crossed (pun intended).

--- End quote ---


Wow, people here are an interesting bunch. If you connect any insulated metallic object to a minus 9v terminal, the terminal will push extra electrons into the object creating an overall negative charge.
--- End quote ---

That is wrong.  An insulated metalic object will be polarized with more electrons further away from the battery minus terminal, and less electrons closer to the battery minus terminal, but the net charge will be unaffected. 

Where did you get this idea?  Or did you simply mistype it?



--- Quote ---When you disconnect the terminal the object will retain its charge because there is no way for the extra electrons to escape to an area with a lower concentration of electrons.
When you discharge the metallic object a small measurable current will pass from the object to ground. That is the extra electrons flowing from the object to ground. The object then returns to a 0 potential.
All conductors have some capacitance. It isn't just capacitors.

No, there is no chicken and the egg situation. In every example you can possibly give, it is a forced movement of charged particles with mass that produces a macroscopic potential difference in electronics.
The energy required to move electrons can come from chemical reactions, thermal energy, Nuclear bombardment, Radioactive decay, macroscopic motion ( turboelectric generators ), compression ( piezo-electrics) etc

--- End quote ---

Everything after your error can be ignored.

--- End quote ---


You are confusing electrostatic induction at a distance with a direct conducting connection lol. That is YOUR error! Yes, everything YOU say is probably garbage.
You are directly connecting a minus 9v battery terminal to an insulated conductor. It becomes a conducting extension of the terminal.
So during the connection extra electrons can flow from the negative terminal into the conductor until it also contains more electrons than protons and thus carries a net negative charge.
When you disconnect the conductor it retains this charge because it IS INSULATED! SUSPENDED ON A FOAM CUP ETC PLEASE USE YOUR OWN BRAIN. INSULATED FROM GROUND....
When you discharge it to ground a small current of surplus electrons flows out to ground.
This routinely happens all the time.
If a charged insulated conductor touches an identical neutral insulated conductor they both end up charged to half the capacity of the original conductor. Conservation of charge.
Monopole magnets don't exist but mono-charges certainly do.
Funny how you represent yourself with a monkey pic. An accurate depiction.

--- End quote ---

The problem is your misstatement of touching an insulated conductor to the battery.  If it is insulated, the conductor can't make contact with the battery terminal. 

Why would you describe the conductor as insulated if it is intended to make conductive contact with the battery?  I suggest you focus on the relevant aspects of the problem and not introduce confusion.

electrodacus:

--- Quote from: AnalogueLove1867 on July 04, 2022, 07:42:04 am ---Yeah, completely agree with you. No resistance so no loss by that mechanism.
Placing a piece of unmagnetized iron next to the  superconductor loop would also reduce the current of the loop as it expends energy in magnetizing the iron.
Same goes with the air  and other moving gases or liquids. the  flow of air past a superconductor would gradually extract energy because it has a relative permeability of 1.00000037 lol.
So  you would need magnetic shielding AND a vacuum to prevent those loss mechanisms.
Just don't understand why nobody has done a long-term superconducting energy storage test. Seems crazy. Would love it if someone could find some study over months or years.

--- End quote ---

First time I heard of a superconductor I asked myself if the resistance was truly zero or it was just limited by measurement precision.
But then when you see what actually happen with type 1 superconductors in terms of resistance, that sudden drop to zero when the critical temperature is reached you know that something very significant has happened is not a gradual resistance drop towards zero.
If you drop a permanent magnet through a thick copper pipe so ultra low electrical resistance the speed at witch the magnet falls is reduced as part of the potential energy of the magnet is converted to electromagnetic radiation (heat) in the copper pipe.
If that pipe is made of super conductor material then magnet will just levitate / float likely forever but even if it is a few minutes and you have no special measurement devices it is enough to show that it is a perfect mirror for the magnetic field.
It will be the equivalent to having a perfect mirror for photos so if you had that you put some photons in a box and they will bounce there for a few minutes then you will know for sure it is a perfect mirror.
There is no perfect isolator not even perfect vacuum in real life but it seems perfect conductor is not a problem.  But is also not magical as while resistance is zero you are limited to max current you can transport through the superconductor before it becomes a normal conductor.

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