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Electroboom: How Right IS Veritasium?! Don't Electrons Push Each Other??

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PlainName:

--- Quote ---If you think that is possible without energy storage please write done the equation. 
--- End quote ---

1. It is no more energy storage than tightening a screw in a hole is - it's just friction. Use a lubricant.

2. That has bugger all to do with Blackbird or even a direct into the wind vehicle.

3. Even if there were an identifiable energy storage componet, so what? This entire thing was set off by you swearing blind that faster than wind travel was an impossibility, no ifs, no buts. Then you saw it happen yourself and the only way out of that bind is to preach energy storage. It's a great gag - dead easy to say it's the thrust (despite being unconstrained, and despite you saying it's not there) or it's the stretchy fixed-length band or tyres or... the world is your elastic band. requiring energy storage for it to work (that is, be sustainable).

4. Even if there was energy storage hidden somewhere, so what? If the average speed is higher than wind speed then it fits the spec and it doesn't actually matter how it does that so long as there is no other external input. And there isn't, but it's still a great gag because you'll say that however long we see this thing go faster than the wind, just around the corner it couldn't have gone on for very much longer.

electrodacus:

--- Quote from: dunkemhigh on July 08, 2022, 10:26:45 pm ---1. It is no more energy storage than tightening a screw in a hole is - it's just friction. Use a lubricant.

2. That has bugger all to do with Blackbird or even a direct into the wind vehicle.

3. Even if there were an identifiable energy storage componet, so what? This entire thing was set off by you swearing blind that faster than wind travel was an impossibility, no ifs, no buts. Then you saw it happen yourself and the only way out of that bind is to preach energy storage. It's a great gag - dead easy to say it's the thrust (despite being unconstrained, and despite you saying it's not there) or it's the stretchy fixed-length band or tyres or... the world is your elastic band.

4. Even if there was energy storage hidden somewhere, so what? If the average speed is higher than wind speed then it fits the spec and it doesn't actually matter how it does that so long as there is no other external input. And there isn't, but it's still a great gag because you'll say that however long we see this thing go faster than the wind, just around the corner it couldn't have gone on for very much longer.

--- End quote ---

1. Tightening a screw will not be energy storage as the screw will not come back out after tightening.

2. It has little if anything to do with direct downwind Blackbird but it has a lot in common with direct upwind version of Blackbird.

3. When I have ever claimed that faster than wind direct downwind is not possible ? I never claimed that.
Also what powers the direct downwind version of Blackbird above wind speed is pressure differential energy storage nothing to do with elastic bands.

4. It does matter as if as Derek says vehicle is directly powered by wind when above wind speed it will be able to maintain higher than wind speed forever where if energy storage is used the vehicle will only be above wind speed until energy storage is used up.

So while I do not and never have claimed directly downwind faster than wind is not possible because it is and vas demonstrated in many ways (both blackbird and the treadmill model demonstrated that). The reason why that happen is super important as energy storage means vehicle is above wind speed for a very limited amount of time proportional with amount of stored energy and more importantly does not violate the conservation of energy.

Naej:

--- Quote from: electrodacus on July 08, 2022, 09:47:05 pm ---If all you have is a wind turbine on wheels say vehicle has negligible frontal area except for the wind turbine that faces directly the wind.
I do not care how the wind turbine is designed or what the wind turbine efficiency is as long as turbine outputs 100W then there will be at a absolute minimum 100W pushing against the vehicle trying to accelerate the vehicle in same direction the air particle move.

--- End quote ---
You provided zero argument for this claim. You won't be surprise to learn that it is wrong.
What is providing the 3MW to a wind turbine?

I don't understand your example. Here is mine: imagine you have a giant gear above your hear, which is turning at constant speed. How fast can a vehicle go?

PlainName:

--- Quote from: electrodacus on July 08, 2022, 10:56:35 pm ---
1. Tightening a screw will not be energy storage as the screw will not come back out after tightening.

--- End quote ---
The model you show doesn't reverse. The screw jumps because of stiction, which is what's happening in your video.


--- Quote ---3. When I have ever claimed that faster than wind direct downwind is not possible ?
--- End quote ---

Then what is this entire thing about? See 4. for your explicit claim that sustained faster than downwind speed isn't possible.


--- Quote --- I never claimed that. [
--- End quote ---

I mispoke in that you claimed it was impossible and then modified that to include energy storage. It seems you needed energy storage from the off (but still claim it's not sustainable). I have modified my original.


--- Quote ---4. It does matter as if as Derek says vehicle is directly powered by wind when above wind speed it will be able to maintain higher than wind speed forever where if energy storage is used the vehicle will only be above wind speed until energy storage is used up.

--- End quote ---

See.


--- Quote ---So while I do not and never have claimed directly downwind faster than wind is not possible because it is and vas demonstrated in many ways (both blackbird and the treadmill model demonstrated that).

--- End quote ---

Ah-ha!


--- Quote --- The reason why that happen is super important as energy storage means vehicle is above wind speed for a very limited amount of time proportional with amount of stored energy and more importantly does not violate the conservation of energy.

--- End quote ---

In other words, it can't be done.

electrodacus:

--- Quote from: Naej on July 08, 2022, 11:03:45 pm ---You provided zero argument for this claim. You won't be surprise to learn that it is wrong.
What is providing the 3MW to a wind turbine?

I don't understand your example. Here is mine: imagine you have a giant gear above your hear, which is turning at constant speed. How fast can a vehicle go?

--- End quote ---

I guess you do not quite get what air is.  The analogy is not "giant gear above your head witch is turning at constant speed" but a large ball at constant speed hitting the vehicle or propeller blade or anything else in the path.

So a sail vehicle direct downwind or Blackbird can only have access to same amount of wind power as interaction between wind (moving air particles) and vehicle is by air particles hitting the vehicle and so exchanging kinetic energy.

When direct downwind vehicle (no matter the design) gest to wind speed those balls speed the balls can no longer hit the vehicle so no energy can be transferred to vehicle from wind.
And when vehicle exceeds wind speed it will encounter drag as now the vehicle will hit the balls and not the other way around.

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