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Electroboom: How Right IS Veritasium?! Don't Electrons Push Each Other??
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electrodacus:

--- Quote from: Naej on July 17, 2022, 12:53:43 am ---Did you read Newton's second law?
I think you distract yourself when there are 2 speeds involved.

--- End quote ---

It seems you do not understand what it means for a vehicle to be connected to two mediums at different speeds and to be powered by that difference.
Such a vehicle can not exceed the delta between those two speed without using energy storage.


--- Quote from: Naej on July 17, 2022, 12:53:43 am ---The computation was simple, but ok.
How about this: one limo A at 10m/s its wheels are connected to a 1kW generator, another limo B is next to it at 11 m/s with a 1kW electric engine connected to the generator.
Which limo accelerates/decelerates?

--- End quote ---

Sorry but I do not understand your problem. Please be more specific.
Limo A is at this time at 10m/s. I guess there is no engine or anything it was just pushed at 10m/s and there is no friction.
What is with the 1kW generator ? is that connected at the wheel and just dumps 1kW as maybe heat in to a resistor ?
What is the weight of lima A ? without that there is not enough data to provide an answer to your question.
 
Limo B "1kW electric engine" do you mean 1kW electric motor maybe powered by a battery ? and then this is "connected to the generator" ?

I can just know based on how you define the problem that you have no clue about the subject.
gnuarm:

--- Quote from: electrodacus on July 16, 2022, 06:33:47 pm ---
--- Quote from: gnuarm on July 16, 2022, 06:12:18 pm ---
Of course you screwed the numbers.  You know this clearly shows you to be wrong, so you have to "simplify" it to a point where you have constructed an example that breaks.  It's not the concept that is broken, just YOUR example. 

I can fix your example very easily.  First your typo has to be fixed.  "The 1.2kg balls that also move at 1m/s" should be "The 1.2kg balls that also move at 10 m/s", no? 

Then change the spacing of the balls from "1 m" to 0.1 meter.  Now the balls will hit the sails and the car will be propelled faster than the wind.

--- End quote ---

Thanks for correcting my typo. It is 10m/s as you correctly pointed out.

OK we can change the ball distance to 0.1m it will make no difference.
Now you have about 5 balls moving around between sails assuming they do not fall down.
The reason for simplification is so you understand that air is made from individual molecules. It is not a long stick pushing the vehicle as Derek falsely explained in his video.
--- End quote ---

But now the balls do strike the sail for any vehicle speed below 4 times the wind speed.  For all vehicle speeds below that, the sails are moving at less than the wind speed, and the wind particles will impact the sails.  The power imparted to the sails is defined by the formula you insist is the correct formula for a sail in the wind. 



--- Quote ---The vehicle with wheels that Derek falsely claimed to be the equivalent of a direct downwind vehicle is actually the equivalent of a direct upwind vehicle with input wheels on the floor and output wheel traveled on the lumber.
Confusing input with output will result in ridiculous conclusions.
--- End quote ---

You are just trying to muddy waters here.  I'm not interested in discussing other models.



--- Quote ---Back to latest example where wind speed is 5m/s and vehicle speed 10m/s in the same direction as the wind.
Will the vehicle/sails not hit the balls? no matter how small or spaced apart?
And vehicle hitting the balls is very different from balls hitting the vehicle. One case will slow down the vehicle and the other one will accelerate the vehicle.

--- End quote ---

Yes, the wind will impact the sails when the vehicle is moving at any speed that is less than four times the wind speed.  This is because the wind is moving faster than the sails which move at 1/4 the vehicle speed.

Good thing we don't need to worry about the sails hitting the wind.  That doesn't happen.  The wind is 5 m/s and the sails are moving at 2.5 m/s.  So the sails will be inflated by the wind with a relative speed of 2.5 m/s. 

Do you concur? 
gnuarm:

--- Quote from: SiliconWizard on July 16, 2022, 06:59:20 pm ---So. In the end, can someone tell the link between electrons, current and energy flow yet? :popcorn:

--- End quote ---

That depends on the size of the sail.
gnuarm:

--- Quote from: Naej on July 16, 2022, 07:50:08 pm ---
--- Quote from: SiliconWizard on July 16, 2022, 06:59:20 pm ---So. In the end, can someone tell the link between electrons, current and energy flow yet? :popcorn:

--- End quote ---
Well in both cases some people argue that there's invisible energy stored here and moving there, which just happens to explain what you see.  ;D

--- End quote ---

Anyone know who Andrea Rossi is?  He is a well known con-artist and "free energy" inventor.  He claims to have invented several devices that are just short of being commercialized.  When anyone wants to view his inventions to verify they work, he severely limits their ability to inspect the devices and constructs elaborate explanations for how they work. 

ED's methods remind me of Rossi.  If someone looks like they are going to pin you, change the discussion to something else so you can add more confusion. 

That's why ED wants to talk about balls striking the sails instead of the wind.  Now he wants to talk about the sails hitting balls.  lol 

He is the one who insists the proper equation is

Pw = 0.5 * air density * area * (wind speed - vehicle speed)3

Yet, he now will not acknowledge this equation.  He wants to talk about balls instead of wind and wants to talk about the speed of the sail when it is folded up, not in contact with the wind and other absurdities. 

Yes, ED is a troll in the true sense of the term, and I am as guilty as anyone for feeding him.  Even in the face of incontrovertible evidence the vehicle can be propelled faster than the wind, he does a shuffle and a side step and simply won't discuss the fact as he previously had stated.
electrodacus:

--- Quote from: gnuarm on July 17, 2022, 01:18:30 am ---
But now the balls do strike the sail for any vehicle speed below 4 times the wind speed.  For all vehicle speeds below that, the sails are moving at less than the wind speed, and the wind particles will impact the sails.  The power imparted to the sails is defined by the formula you insist is the correct formula for a sail in the wind. 

You are just trying to muddy waters here.  I'm not interested in discussing other models.


Yes, the wind will impact the sails when the vehicle is moving at any speed that is less than four times the wind speed.  This is because the wind is moving faster than the sails which move at 1/4 the vehicle speed.

Good thing we don't need to worry about the sails hitting the wind.  That doesn't happen.  The wind is 5 m/s and the sails are moving at 2.5 m/s.  So the sails will be inflated by the wind with a relative speed of 2.5 m/s. 

Do you concur?

--- End quote ---

No I do not concur.
You have a trouble understanding the dynamic of all this.
When vehicle is below wind speed the sails will be hit by air particles from the back of the vehicle accelerating the vehicle forward.
When vehicle travels atr wind speed there is no interaction between those particles and vehicle.
When vehicle speed is above wind speed the air particles will be hit by the vehicle.  So the other side of the sail will collide with the air particle slowing the vehicle down.
Keep in mind that in all the above I removed the air compressibility from the equation so it is like if I was talking about water not air.

You fail to understand the change in direction. What side of the sail will be in cont with the balls and what hits what.
That 5m/s wind moves from the front of the vehicle to the back. You may be confused because you select car speed of 10m/s and wind speed of 5m/s
So wind speed relative to ground will be 5m/s from left to right while wind speed relative to a 10m/s moving vehicle will be 5m/s from right to left.

Vehicle experiences a head wind of 5m/s.   
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