General > General Technical Chat
Electroboom: How Right IS Veritasium?! Don't Electrons Push Each Other??
electrodacus:
--- Quote from: gnuarm on July 17, 2022, 01:29:36 am ---
Anyone know who Andrea Rossi is? He is a well known con-artist and "free energy" inventor. He claims to have invented several devices that are just short of being commercialized. When anyone wants to view his inventions to verify they work, he severely limits their ability to inspect the devices and constructs elaborate explanations for how they work.
ED's methods remind me of Rossi. If someone looks like they are going to pin you, change the discussion to something else so you can add more confusion.
That's why ED wants to talk about balls striking the sails instead of the wind. Now he wants to talk about the sails hitting balls. lol
He is the one who insists the proper equation is
Pw = 0.5 * air density * area * (wind speed - vehicle speed)3
Yet, he now will not acknowledge this equation. He wants to talk about balls instead of wind and wants to talk about the speed of the sail when it is folded up, not in contact with the wind and other absurdities.
Yes, ED is a troll in the true sense of the term, and I am as guilty as anyone for feeding him. Even in the face of incontrovertible evidence the vehicle can be propelled faster than the wind, he does a shuffle and a side step and simply won't discuss the fact as he previously had stated.
--- End quote ---
Nobody care about that Rossi. I'm on the opposite side of free energy as that is what you seems to claim unwillingly and maybe what you know free energy con artists by name.
What are you talking about ? That is the proper equation. When did I not acknowledged.
For your example the result is this
5m/s wind 10m/s vehicle will just say area is 1m2 for easy calculation
Pw= 0.5 * air density * area * (wind speed - vehicle speed)3 = 0.5 * 1.2 * 1 * (5 - 10)3 = -75W
The negative means vehicle will decelerate at that rate if it happens to find itself there.
Again is important to specify that energy storage (pressure differential) was ignored to show that no wind powered vehicle no matter the design will not exceed wind speed without energy storage.
gnuarm:
--- Quote from: electrodacus on July 17, 2022, 01:39:38 am ---
--- Quote from: gnuarm on July 17, 2022, 01:18:30 am ---
But now the balls do strike the sail for any vehicle speed below 4 times the wind speed. For all vehicle speeds below that, the sails are moving at less than the wind speed, and the wind particles will impact the sails. The power imparted to the sails is defined by the formula you insist is the correct formula for a sail in the wind.
You are just trying to muddy waters here. I'm not interested in discussing other models.
Yes, the wind will impact the sails when the vehicle is moving at any speed that is less than four times the wind speed. This is because the wind is moving faster than the sails which move at 1/4 the vehicle speed.
Good thing we don't need to worry about the sails hitting the wind. That doesn't happen. The wind is 5 m/s and the sails are moving at 2.5 m/s. So the sails will be inflated by the wind with a relative speed of 2.5 m/s.
Do you concur?
--- End quote ---
No I do not concur.
You have a trouble understanding the dynamic of all this.
When vehicle is below wind speed the sails will be hit by air particles from the back of the vehicle accelerating the vehicle forward.
When vehicle travels atr wind speed there is no interaction between those particles and vehicle.
--- End quote ---
You can't seem to understand what is going on. When the vehicle is at the wind speed, the sails are at 1/4 the wind speed, so they clearly do interact with the wind.
Please acknowledge this. Do you agree that the sails are moving at 1/4 the speed of the wind, and therefore are both impacted by the wind and receive power from the wind.
--- Quote ---When vehicle speed is above wind speed the air particles will be hit by the vehicle.
--- End quote ---
Why are you talking about "the vehicle" rather than the sails? Please focus on the sails and do not let your ADD interfere with understanding what is happening.
--- Quote ---So the other side of the sail will collide with the air particle slowing the vehicle down.
Keep in mind that in all the above I removed the air compressibility from the equation so it is like if I was talking about water not air.
--- End quote ---
Now you are back to talking about the sail, but you have confused its speed with the vehicle speed. The sail moves at 1/4 the vehicle speed. Try to keep that in mind as you analyzed the problem, and you will get the right answer.
DO NOT LET YOUR ADD DISTRACT YOU.
--- Quote ---You fail to understand the change in direction. What side of the sail will be in cont with the balls and what hits what.
That 5m/s wind moves from the front of the vehicle to the back. You may be confused because you select car speed of 10m/s and wind speed of 5m/s
So wind speed relative to ground will be 5m/s from left to right while wind speed relative to a 10m/s moving vehicle will be 5m/s from right to left.
Vehicle experiences a head wind of 5m/s.
--- End quote ---
Now that I've explained your errors, do you understand? Do I need to type more slowly for you?
electrodacus:
--- Quote from: gnuarm on July 17, 2022, 01:47:56 am ---You can't seem to understand what is going on. When the vehicle is at the wind speed, the sails are at 1/4 the wind speed, so they clearly do interact with the wind.
Please acknowledge this. Do you agree that the sails are moving at 1/4 the speed of the wind, and therefore are both impacted by the wind and receive power from the wind.
Why are you talking about "the vehicle" rather than the sails? Please focus on the sails and do not let your ADD interfere with understanding what is happening.
Now you are back to talking about the sail, but you have confused its speed with the vehicle speed. The sail moves at 1/4 the vehicle speed. Try to keep that in mind as you analyzed the problem, and you will get the right answer.
DO NOT LET YOUR ADD DISTRACT YOU.
Now that I've explained your errors, do you understand? Do I need to type more slowly for you?
--- End quote ---
It seems you just have a hard time understanding that sails move with the vehicle and around the vehicle. Even after the explanation using balls you still do not see what happens so not sure but that may be a limitation you have.
Sails average speed equal vehicle speed.
Please switch back and consider air as 1.2kg balls 1m apart and a vehicle total length of 0.5m
It is the only way you will understand how sails interact with particles as you do not see air as small particles but as something else.
gnuarm:
--- Quote from: electrodacus on July 17, 2022, 01:58:27 am ---
--- Quote from: gnuarm on July 17, 2022, 01:47:56 am ---You can't seem to understand what is going on. When the vehicle is at the wind speed, the sails are at 1/4 the wind speed, so they clearly do interact with the wind.
Please acknowledge this. Do you agree that the sails are moving at 1/4 the speed of the wind, and therefore are both impacted by the wind and receive power from the wind.
Why are you talking about "the vehicle" rather than the sails? Please focus on the sails and do not let your ADD interfere with understanding what is happening.
Now you are back to talking about the sail, but you have confused its speed with the vehicle speed. The sail moves at 1/4 the vehicle speed. Try to keep that in mind as you analyzed the problem, and you will get the right answer.
DO NOT LET YOUR ADD DISTRACT YOU.
Now that I've explained your errors, do you understand? Do I need to type more slowly for you?
--- End quote ---
It seems you just have a hard time understanding that sails move with the vehicle and around the vehicle. Even after the explanation using balls you still do not see what happens so not sure but that may be a limitation you have.
Sails average speed equal vehicle speed.
Please switch back and consider air as 1.2kg balls 1m apart and a vehicle total length of 0.5m
It is the only way you will understand how sails interact with particles as you do not see air as small particles but as something else.
--- End quote ---
Dude, you are psychotic. You really think anyone can't see your BS? Don't switch to anything. Stick to the wind since that is what's happening. You can't grasp how to manipulate the model to agree with your claims, so you have to change them.
You have done this every time. You have misrepresented the facts many, many times and you continue to refuse to see reality.
Ok, that's on you. The rest of us understand what is happening.
I feel sorry for your employers.
electrodacus:
--- Quote from: gnuarm on July 17, 2022, 03:15:58 am ---Dude, you are psychotic. You really think anyone can't see your BS? Don't switch to anything. Stick to the wind since that is what's happening. You can't grasp how to manipulate the model to agree with your claims, so you have to change them.
You have done this every time. You have misrepresented the facts many, many times and you continue to refuse to see reality.
Ok, that's on you. The rest of us understand what is happening.
I feel sorry for your employers.
--- End quote ---
Hopefully others can provide their understanding.
Your vehicle when moving at 10ms direct downwind with a 5m/s wind will experience a 5m/s (10m/s - 5m/s) headwind.
No air particle will be able to hit the back of the sail in order to power the vehicle.
You just forget what powers this vehicle. No air particle hitting the back of the vehicle (this includes the sail) no forward acceleration.
It is useful to think in terms of balls as that will be a non compressible fluid equivalent and you will realize that without energy storage it can not work.
It is a limitation that you have not allowing you to deal with multiple variable changing at the same time. That is a bit strange based on your user name.
You refuse to understand that sails move around the vehicle and you imagine an infinite long belt so sails never need to go under the vehicle.
Maybe it helps if you take a few points to build a graph
wind speed always 5m/s
Vehicle speed:
0m/s air molecules hit the back of the sail at 5m/s so most wind power
1m/s air molecule hits the back of the sail at 4m/s while the sail hits back at 0.75m/s total collision speed 4.75m/s
2m/s air molecule hits the back of the sail at 3m/s while sail hits back at 1.5m/s total 4.5m/s
3m/s air molecule hits the back of the sail at 2m/s while sail hits back at 2.25m/s but this point is already impossible for your vehicle to accelerate in a non compressible fluid.
If it is a compressible fluid from this point the vehicle is powered by the energy it stored up to this point.
It will be an inferior design to blackbird so max speed will be lower but I understand the reason you think this is easier to understand but is just not what you think it is.
And I can ignore the fact that vehicle is no longer power by wind and just continue to calculate what will happen with air particles assuming vehicle can advance forward by magic or an internal energy source
4m/s air molecules will hit the back of the sail at 1m/s and sail will sit back at 3m/s
5m/s air molecule can no longer hit the air molecule but if there are air molecules in between those sails it could push them out at 4m/s using the magic or on board energy source.
6m/s air molecule will travel from front of the vehicle to the back at 1m/s so those air molecules ending between sails can be pushed out by the sails that will hit them at just 3.5m/s (sails move at 4.5m/s but the air molecule already travels in the same direction at 1m/s).
7m/s air molecules move at 2m/s and so (5.25 - 2)= 3.25m/s (air particle hit by the propeller).
8m/s air molecules move at 3m/s and so (6-3) = 3m/s
9m/s air molecules move at 4m/s and so (6.75-4) = 2.75m/s
10m/s air molecules move at 5m/s and so (7.5-5) = 2.5m/s
Do you understand that if the air molecule hits the vehicle/sail at higher speed than the sail hits back you get some net energy form the air molecule to accelerate your vehicle and if the sail hits the vehicle then your vehicle needs some other energy source as it is no longer powered by wind.
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