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Electroboom: How Right IS Veritasium?! Don't Electrons Push Each Other??
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electrodacus:

--- Quote from: gnuarm on July 17, 2022, 06:19:01 pm ---Why do you continue to distort the example.  The SAILS are traveling at 2.5 m/s, not 10 m/s.  I've made that very clear.  So the sails will feel the wind pushing them in the direction of the car with 2.5 m/s relative velocity.  Usually you try to muddy the waters.  In this case, you are just making up your own reality, basically LYING about the facts. 

Don't do that.


This is the more typical BS you espouse, making up irrelevant crap.

I trimmed the rest of your pointless tirade.  We've read all your crap before.  When are you going to acknowledge reality?

--- End quote ---

Reality will not care about what you think happens.
Sails on your vehicles are attached to the vehicle and travel at the same speed the vehicle travels it just that they also move around the vehicle.

There is a difference (very important difference) between air particles colliding with vehicle (any part including sails) and vehicle colliding with the air particles.
The only way any wind powered vehicle is powered by the wind power is if wind particles collide with vehicle (any part of the vehicle) as they will transfer energy to vehicle.
If vehicle (any part) collides with air particles then vehicle provides energy to the air particles.

The fact that you fail to see that sails are attached to vehicle so they move at the same speed relative to the ground in average makes you unable to predict the outcome.
Ignoring the fact that air is a compressible fluid and seeing the incomplete test results makes you come to ridiculous conclusion like vehicle is still powered by wind power when well above wind speed.

Why do you even need a propeller or moving sails ? If you think air compressibility has no role why not demonstrate a  direct downwind vehicle using just wheels and two solid surfaces moving at different speeds ?
You will not be able to demonstrate that as it is not possible.
electrodacus:

--- Quote from: Alex Eisenhut on July 17, 2022, 06:28:17 pm ---Amazing! How does a wave propagate slower in a stripline than in a microstrip?

Why did Tektronix put a variable velocity on their TDR systems? How does this "electron wave" propagate at different speeds inside the wire depending on the material outside the wire?

For that matter, how do you explain dielectric losses?

--- End quote ---

They are good questions but not a proof that energy travels outside the wire.
A strip line all else being equal will have 2x the capacitance of a microstrip as there are return paths on both sides of a strip line.
Same happens if you add different dielectric materials between the capacitor plates.
In Derek's case he had just bare copper pipes 1m apart thus the speed of electron wave was very close maybe 98 or 99% of the speed of light.
What Derek observed after the time the light speed needed to travel about 1m was line capacitance being charged.

Same as electrical energy is not flowing through a capacitor (else it will no longer be a capacitor) the electrical energy is not flowing through that 1m air space.
Charges in that piece of wire 1m apart are just rearranged and there are no electrons fling trough that 1m of air gap at just 20Vdc.
If there where electrons fling trough that air space then electrical energy will have been transferred there.

If the ends of the circuit will not have been connected in Derks experiment then you will still have observed that current through the lamp as charges are redistributed while capacitor made by those wires is being charged then nothing will have happened if you opened the switch and then close the switch again as the line capacitance was already charged when the switch was closed for the first time.
And there is that electrical energy stored there in the line capacitance that did no work. Obviously charging the capacitor means electrical energy travel through wires and there was some amount of energy converted to thermal energy than then was dissipated to space as infrared photons.

That is why I considered a charged capacitor paralleled to a discharged capacitor as the best example of describing how electrical energy is transferred from one capacitor to another.
The difference between a charged a a discharged capacitor is just the difference between the number of free electrons between the two parallel plates of the capacitor.
Naej:

--- Quote from: electrodacus on July 17, 2022, 03:05:27 pm ---
--- Quote from: Naej on July 17, 2022, 08:48:56 am ---The electric generator is connected on limo A wheels and produce 1kW (say 1kV, 1A DC). Regenerative breaking if you will.
The 1kW electric engine is connected on limo B wheels and powered by limo A's electric generator.
10t limos.
So, will the fast limo get faster, and the slow one slower? Or the reverse perhaps?

--- End quote ---

Thanks for clarifying.
Obviously the limo A will go slower as it converts his kinetic energy in to electrical energy that is then transferred through wires to limo B witch will use that electrical energy to increase kinetic energy by the amount limo A has lost.
You will need a very long cable as the distance between the two limos will increase over time.
But what is even the point of this example.

--- End quote ---
The point was to have you admit that it is possible for a slow object to transfer its energy to a fast one. Which you said was impossible.

Now truck A is at 10 m/s, truck B is at 11 m/s (both 10 tons).
An electric bike (200kg, driver is Carrie-Anne Moss) is on truck B and at 10 m/s (with respect to the ground), so that it can jump on truck A.
Once on truck A, it accelerates with its 10kW engine during 1s, and jumps on truck B. (Moss is now at 20 m/s with respect to the ground)
On truck B, the bike uses regenerative breaking until it stops at 10kW, which gives 8100J to the bike during 0.81 s.
The bike is recharged with a generator on truck B wheels, by exactly 2000J.
Now the bike is turned around and back at 10 m/s (with respect to ground), which it can do with the 100J remaining.
And the cycle can repeat, with truck A'.

Question: what is the kinetic energy of truck B?
You just have to compute what was given to truck B by Moss when breaking, and remove the 2000J.
Or compute the decrease in kinetic energy of truck A.
electrodacus:

--- Quote from: Naej on July 17, 2022, 09:57:02 pm ---The point was to have you admit that it is possible for a slow object to transfer its energy to a fast one. Which you said was impossible.

--- End quote ---

There was a cable connecting this two vehicles that needed to be longer and longer as the distance between the vehicle grows very fast.
There is no cable between air particles and wind powered vehicle and the only way the air particle can transfer energy to vehicle is to hit the back of the vehicle (propeller or sail is at same speed as the vehicle and part of the vehicle).


--- Quote from: Naej on July 17, 2022, 09:57:02 pm ---Now truck A is at 10 m/s, truck B is at 11 m/s (both 10 tons).
An electric bike (200kg, driver is Carrie-Anne Moss) is on truck B and at 10 m/s (with respect to the ground), so that it can jump on truck A.
Once on truck A, it accelerates with its 10kW engine during 1s, and jumps on truck B. (Moss is now at 20 m/s with respect to the ground)
On truck B, the bike uses regenerative breaking until it stops at 10kW, which gives 8100J to the bike during 0.81 s.
The bike is recharged with a generator on truck B wheels, by exactly 2000J.
Now the bike is turned around and back at 10 m/s (with respect to ground), which it can do with the 100J remaining.
And the cycle can repeat, with truck A'.

Question: what is the kinetic energy of truck B?
You just have to compute what was given to truck B by Moss when breaking, and remove the 2000J.
Or compute the decrease in kinetic energy of truck A.

--- End quote ---

This is one of the most ridiculous things I heard.
Air particles and direct downwind vehicle interaction can only be air particle collides with vehicle and transfers kinetic energy to vehicle.
As air is a compressible fluid a higher number of air particles will bunch up in the back of the vehicle and a lower number will be in front thus a pressure differential.
If you have a propeller like on blackbird you can use wind energy (while well below wind speed) to keep this pressure differential from dropping and so basically store energy in this pressure differential.

All you have is potential wind energy which is 0.5 *  vehicle mass * (wind speed)2
For a sail vehicle you can convert this to vehicle kinetic energy so you trade the potential energy for kinetic energy and the vehicle can not exceed wind speed.
For blackbird direct downwind version you start with the same potential wind energy but as you start to convert that to kinetic energy part of it instead of converting into kinetic energy will be put back to increase the potential wind energy.
Of course as vehicle slowly accelerates there is less wind power available and at some point well before vehicle gets at wind speed the stored potential energy is used up to accelerate the vehicle so pressure differential will continue to drop but before it gets to zero it accelerated the vehicle well above wind speed then vehicle just starts to slow down.


So to use your analogy all you need is vehicle A and a generator connected to a battery.
Without the generator and battery vehicle A can best case get to wind speed as it is pushed by air particles.
With the generator instead of accelerating the energy from wind is stored in to battery so more time is spent at low vehicle speed and then that stored battery energy is converted in to vehicle kinetic energy.
gnuarm:

--- Quote from: electrodacus on July 17, 2022, 06:36:49 pm ---
--- Quote from: gnuarm on July 17, 2022, 06:19:01 pm ---Why do you continue to distort the example.  The SAILS are traveling at 2.5 m/s, not 10 m/s.  I've made that very clear.  So the sails will feel the wind pushing them in the direction of the car with 2.5 m/s relative velocity.  Usually you try to muddy the waters.  In this case, you are just making up your own reality, basically LYING about the facts. 

Don't do that.


This is the more typical BS you espouse, making up irrelevant crap.

I trimmed the rest of your pointless tirade.  We've read all your crap before.  When are you going to acknowledge reality?

--- End quote ---

Reality will not care about what you think happens.
Sails on your vehicles are attached to the vehicle and travel at the same speed the vehicle travels it just that they also move around the vehicle.
--- End quote ---

Dude!  Reality is only a concept to you, something you are free to wrap around your finger.  You wouldn't know reality if it smacked you in the face.

You know as well as anyone that the sails are in the wind when on the top side and are furled and not in the wind on the bottom side.  The wind, as well as your little balls, get into the sails and push the car along all day long.



--- Quote ---There is a difference (very important difference) between air particles colliding with vehicle (any part including sails) and vehicle colliding with the air particles.
The only way any wind powered vehicle is powered by the wind power is if wind particles collide with vehicle (any part of the vehicle) as they will transfer energy to vehicle.
If vehicle (any part) collides with air particles then vehicle provides energy to the air particles.

The fact that you fail to see that sails are attached to vehicle so they move at the same speed relative to the ground in average makes you unable to predict the outcome.
Ignoring the fact that air is a compressible fluid and seeing the incomplete test results makes you come to ridiculous conclusion like vehicle is still powered by wind power when well above wind speed.
--- End quote ---

LOL  You clearly either have a mental illness, or are just trolling.  I think you are just a troll.  You get off on trying to jerk people... I mean around. 



--- Quote ---Why do you even need a propeller or moving sails ? If you think air compressibility has no role why not demonstrate a  direct downwind vehicle using just wheels and two solid surfaces moving at different speeds ?
You will not be able to demonstrate that as it is not possible.

--- End quote ---

Who cares.  The sail experiment is very clear and shows how, in very simple terms that pretty much any idiot can understand, that a vehicle can travel faster than the wind.  A person has to be very "special" to not understand the factors involved.  "Special" indeed.
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