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Electroboom: How Right IS Veritasium?! Don't Electrons Push Each Other??

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PlainName:

--- Quote ---Why am I still here?
--- End quote ---

Either entertainment or disbelief.

gnuarm:

--- Quote from: electrodacus on July 18, 2022, 03:23:13 am ---
--- Quote from: gnuarm on July 18, 2022, 03:11:39 am ---What is relevant is the wind speed relative to the sail that it is impacting.  When the sails are furled, the wind can not interact with them, so they are not part of the equation. 

This is such clear evidence of either trolling, or a mental defect, there is no need to discuss it further.  Either way, you probably need professional help.

--- End quote ---

What you have is replaced the axial fan on blackbird with a sort of centrifugal fan.
This fan is fixed to a vehicle traveling at 10m/s relative to ground.
--- End quote ---

Not really, but to discuss the actual situation would prove you to be wrong, so you insist on talking about absurdities.



--- Quote ---I could say that mental defect is on your part but that will just not help.
--- End quote ---

No, it would not improve your mental well being at all.



--- Quote ---If the air particle hits the sail with more energy than the sail hits back the vehicle is powered by wind power. If the sail hits the particle with more energy than air particle hits the sail some stored energy power the vehicle.   If that stored energy is vehicle kinetic energy the vehicle will slow down.
--- End quote ---

You ignore Newton's law, for every action, there is a reaction.  There is no x hitting y vs. y hitting x.  But you love to complicate things in ways that make it look like you know what you are talking about.



--- Quote ---I'm sorry you can not see the difference between air particle hitting the vehicle (sail is part of the vehicle) and vehicle hitting the air particle.
In first case air particle delivers kinetic energy to vehicle while in the second case the vehicle delivers energy to air particle.

--- End quote ---

You are the one who insists on talking about the wind interacting with the vehicle, when we can make the vehicle as insignificant as we like, limited only by real materials.  The sails can be made as large as we like so they totally dominate the influence of the wind on the vehicle.  Look at any picture of a sailing ship.  The sails are enormous compared to the vessel.


You can't seem to understand that if the sails are folded up at the rear of the car and moved to the front of the car without interacting with the wind, you don't include them in the power equation. 

But like I've said, I don't think you are this mentally challenged.  You would not be able to construct the elaborate deceptions if you were.  Instead, it is clear that you are just a common, everyday troll. 

gnuarm:

--- Quote from: dunkemhigh on July 18, 2022, 10:55:07 pm ---
--- Quote ---Why am I still here?
--- End quote ---

Either entertainment or disbelief.

--- End quote ---

The right question is, why are any of us here? 

I think we enjoy entertaining the troll.  We hold up little pieces of meat to make him dance, and he does!  Every single time...

Naej:

--- Quote from: electrodacus on July 18, 2022, 03:20:22 pm ---
--- Quote from: Naej on July 18, 2022, 08:53:19 am ---The first example was only designed to make you understand it's possible to transfer kinetic energy from slow to fast objects.
While you insisted that the power was negative, which is true I guess, in a way, but also irrelevant.

--- End quote ---

All you have is air molecules Nitrogen and Oxygen mostly traveling in a specific direction at some speed and the vehicle traveling in same direction pushed by the air molecules.
There is no equivalent of the bicycle or electric cable between them.

What people fail to take in to account is the fact that air as any other gas is compressible so you can have more molecules in the same space.
A propeller used as a fan will create a pressure differential around with a higher than atmospheric pressure volume on one side and a lower than atmospheric pressure volume on the opposite side.
To create this pressure differential energy is needed and that is provided by wind as vehicle speed is well below wind speed. As this pressure differential is increased it will get to the point where it will have the majority contribution to vehicle acceleration still vehicle below wind speed and so by the time vehicle gets to wind speed there is still a pressure differential (you can call this artificially created wind) that has limited amount of energy due to limited volumes of air at different pressure.
The "natural" wind is the same and has limited amount of energy to provide but the volumes of air at different pressure are huge in comparison with what propeller managed to create and the "natural" wind is supplied by sun so it is a form of solar power (thus you always have wind somewhere due to unequal heating of earth by the sun).
All that is needed for this not not work is replace air with a non compressible fluid or use solids so that energy can no longer be stored. That is why a vehicle with wheels only (so replace the propeller with a wheel) can not demonstrate output speed higher than input.
Unless as Derek has done you confuse input with output.

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Well I replaced air with solids, and you refuse to tell me if it works or not.
Such a simple mechanics question, and you, who managed to revolutionize aerodynamics and physics in general, cannot answer it.

Also the tip of a wind turbine goes much faster than the wind. While producing electricity, mind you.
I guess the wind turbine too must be confusing input and output, like some sort of bad programmer.

gnuarm:

--- Quote from: cbutlera on July 18, 2022, 10:48:56 pm ---
--- Quote from: electrodacus on July 18, 2022, 03:20:22 pm ---..
All that is needed for this not not work is replace air with a non compressible fluid or use solids so that energy can no longer be stored. That is why a vehicle with wheels only (so replace the propeller with a wheel) can not demonstrate output speed higher than input.
..

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That gave me an idea.

How about hydraulic fluid. Is that incompressible enough?

Here is a cutaway diagram of a pipe pig I just thought up.  It is moving in a rectangular pipe with narrow racks down either side.  It has two gear chambers side by side, with their gears on common shafts so that they rotate together.  The pump gear chamber is pretty much a conventional gear type hydraulic pump.  The drive gear chamber is similar, except that it engages with two racks that slide through close fitting slots in the chamber walls.  Both gear chambers are immersed in hydraulic fluid.  The whole device is a close fit in the pipe, so that hydraulic fluid cannot leak past to a significant degree.  The closely meshing involute gears and racks prevent any significant amount of hydraulic fluid from passing through the drive gear chamber.

Whichever direction the  pipe pig moves, it will pump fluid from the front to the rear.  So if there is a steady flow of hydraulic fluid along the pipe, the device will be pushed in the same direction as the the fluid but it will move a little faster, due to the additional fluid being pumped to its rear.

I just throw this in as a contribution, I have no interest in wasting further time responding to any irrational comments on it.  I might respond to a rational comment if I feel so inclined.  I'm sure that ED will claim that either a) It will not move and the pipe will burst, or b) it will move, but the pipe represents the wind, the pig represents the ground and the hydraulic fluid is the vehicle (or some other unjustified permutation).  Whatever the claim is, I don't care.

Here is the Wikipedia page on hydraulic pumps https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydraulic_pump from which I copied part of my diagram.

Involute gear profile courtesy of Dr. Rainer Hessmer http://www.hessmer.org/blog/2014/01/01/online-involute-spur-gear-builder/

Why am I still here?

--- End quote ---

I like this.  It is not quite as obvious as the sails moving to the rear of the car, but it is iron clad.  Since the fluid is virtually incompressible, the pump will have to move faster than the flow of fluid.

You call it a pig.  Is that your term, or is this a real thing?

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