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Electroboom: How Right IS Veritasium?! Don't Electrons Push Each Other??

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gnuarm:

--- Quote from: electrodacus on July 19, 2022, 01:36:56 am ---
--- Quote from: gnuarm on July 19, 2022, 01:33:14 am ---And as usual, he literally can't understand the principles, so he wants to use a diagram that doesn't even show the movement of the fluid or the pump which is the result of the major movement of the fluid.

He has to be putting us all on.  No one can be that consistently wrong.

Floyd was a guy who worked at a place I did.  I never met him but I heard the stories.  Once, someone was calculating the area of a room, length times width.  He insisted that was wrong, it was length divided by width.  He argument was, "How many quarters in a dollar?  How many quarters in two dollars?  See?" 

His other claim to fame was in front of customers where he said the antennas should be put at the bottom of the hill, rather than at the top because electrons run down hill.  It took a moment, for everyone to eventually laugh... but he was serious. 

He wanted people to call him Tom, but his name was Floyd.  Maybe that's what ED should be called, Floyd.

--- End quote ---

If the fluid flow in the opposite direction of the pump ? Just a simple yes or no will be fine.

--- End quote ---

Which fluid flow?  The fluid flow in the pipe is in the direction of the movement of the pump, because that is what moves the pump and causes the pump to work.  Then the pump moves a lesser amount of fluid in the reverse direction, which because the fluid is incompressible, means the pump has to move a bit further and therefore is moving faster than the fluid. 

You are using a diagram that does not show the movement of the pump, because it is a stationary pump operated by some driver, and the movement of the fluid through the pump is the only fluid movement. 

WRONG DIAGRAM, FLOYD!!!  "How many quarters in a dollar,...?"

electrodacus:

--- Quote from: gnuarm on July 19, 2022, 01:48:33 am ---Which fluid flow?  The fluid flow in the pipe is in the direction of the movement of the pump, because that is what moves the pump and causes the pump to work.  Then the pump moves a lesser amount of fluid in the reverse direction, which because the fluid is incompressible, means the pump has to move a bit further and therefore is moving faster than the fluid. 

You are using a diagram that does not show the movement of the pump, because it is a stationary pump operated by some driver, and the movement of the fluid through the pump is the only fluid movement. 

WRONG DIAGRAM, FLOYD!!!  "How many quarters in a dollar,...?"

--- End quote ---

Why even use a more complicated design than this that I already posted

You just make assumption on how that vehicle will work.

gnuarm:

--- Quote from: electrodacus on July 19, 2022, 02:02:51 am ---
--- Quote from: gnuarm on July 19, 2022, 01:48:33 am ---Which fluid flow?  The fluid flow in the pipe is in the direction of the movement of the pump, because that is what moves the pump and causes the pump to work.  Then the pump moves a lesser amount of fluid in the reverse direction, which because the fluid is incompressible, means the pump has to move a bit further and therefore is moving faster than the fluid. 

You are using a diagram that does not show the movement of the pump, because it is a stationary pump operated by some driver, and the movement of the fluid through the pump is the only fluid movement. 

WRONG DIAGRAM, FLOYD!!!  "How many quarters in a dollar,...?"

--- End quote ---

Why even use a more complicated design than this that I already posted

You just make assumption on how that vehicle will work.

--- End quote ---

Is English not your first language?  Sometimes your sentences are a bit tortured.

I have zero interest in shifting to yet another analog for the basic problem.  We have many, many analog models and you always find yet another way to pervert them.  I have given you a relatively simple model that shows a vehicle moving faster than the wind and you insist on saying silly things to "prove" it doesn't work.  As long as you are going to be silly, there's no reason to engage you in dialog.

In other words, go away, until you are willing to talk sense.  Silly boy.

This model is actually very complex, because you omit two very important forces.  So the equations can not be solved.  Figure out what F5 and F6 are, and you may understand the design.  But the real mistake is talking about forces, when that is not the issue.  The issue is movement.  At steady state, with no friction and no air resistance, all these forces can be zero and the vehicle will still move.  Movement does not require force, acceleration does.

Assign numbers to the diameters (hopefully simple integer ratios) and the movement can be shown.  Here, I'll do that for you.

D1 / D4 = 3.  D2 / D3 = 1.333  So when D2 rotates 1 m, D3 and D4 rotate 0.75 m and D1 rotates 2.25 m.  So when the treadmill moves 2.25 m to the left, the car will move 1 m to the right.  The car moves up wind.

electrodacus:

--- Quote from: gnuarm on July 19, 2022, 02:55:27 am ---Is English not your first language?  Sometimes your sentences are a bit tortured.

I have zero interest in shifting to yet another analog for the basic problem.  We have many, many analog models and you always find yet another way to pervert them.  I have given you a relatively simple model that shows a vehicle moving faster than the wind and you insist on saying silly things to "prove" it doesn't work.  As long as you are going to be silly, there's no reason to engage you in dialog.

In other words, go away, until you are willing to talk sense.  Silly boy.

This model is actually very complex, because you omit two very important forces.  So the equations can not be solved.  Figure out what F5 and F6 are, and you may understand the design.  But the real mistake is talking about forces, when that is not the issue.  The issue is movement.  At steady state, with no friction and no air resistance, all these forces can be zero and the vehicle will still move.  Movement does not require force, acceleration does.

Assign numbers to the diameters (hopefully simple integer ratios) and the movement can be shown.  Here, I'll do that for you.

D1 / D4 = 3.  D2 / D3 = 1.333  So when D2 rotates 1 m, D3 and D4 rotate 0.75 m and D1 rotates 2.25 m.  So when the treadmill moves 2.25 m to the left, the car will move 1 m to the right.  The car moves up wind.

--- End quote ---

You can add any other forces you think are necessary to explain what happens and also you can choose whatever diameter's you think are useful.
As long as you do not consider both energy storage and stick slip or similar trigger to discharge the stored energy that vehicle will not move from left to right at any speed.
That simple vehicle has just two points of contact the bottom part of the front and back wheels.
Any force applied by the treadmill to the front wheel F1 will require an equal and opposite force at the back wheel F2.
There is nothing else to say about that vehicle other than F3 and F4 are also equal and opposite.
You (most of you) are to used with vehicle that have an onboard engine/motor.

As for blackbird I never claimed it will not exceed wind speed and similar designed vehicle could do the same but the reason they can exceed wind speed is energy storage so wind speed is exceeded for a limited amount of time proportional with the amount of stored energy.

The wheels only example in Derks video drives on the lumber and that is a fact and input is on the small wheels so it is powered by the floor again a fact.
There are ways to test that is the case if you do not believe the small wheels (input) drive the large wheel (output).

That hydraulic device is a bit more complex and I think it will likely not move at all so basically a plug. If it moves it will sure not move faster than the flow speed in the same direction as the flow as that will violate the energy conservation law.

gnuarm:

--- Quote from: electrodacus on July 19, 2022, 03:18:09 am ---
--- Quote from: gnuarm on July 19, 2022, 02:55:27 am ---Is English not your first language?  Sometimes your sentences are a bit tortured.

I have zero interest in shifting to yet another analog for the basic problem.  We have many, many analog models and you always find yet another way to pervert them.  I have given you a relatively simple model that shows a vehicle moving faster than the wind and you insist on saying silly things to "prove" it doesn't work.  As long as you are going to be silly, there's no reason to engage you in dialog.

In other words, go away, until you are willing to talk sense.  Silly boy.

This model is actually very complex, because you omit two very important forces.  So the equations can not be solved.  Figure out what F5 and F6 are, and you may understand the design.  But the real mistake is talking about forces, when that is not the issue.  The issue is movement.  At steady state, with no friction and no air resistance, all these forces can be zero and the vehicle will still move.  Movement does not require force, acceleration does.

Assign numbers to the diameters (hopefully simple integer ratios) and the movement can be shown.  Here, I'll do that for you.

D1 / D4 = 3.  D2 / D3 = 1.333  So when D2 rotates 1 m, D3 and D4 rotate 0.75 m and D1 rotates 2.25 m.  So when the treadmill moves 2.25 m to the left, the car will move 1 m to the right.  The car moves up wind.

--- End quote ---

You can add any other forces you think are necessary to explain what happens and also you can choose whatever diameter's you think are useful.
As long as you do not consider both energy storage and stick slip or similar trigger to discharge the stored energy that vehicle will not move from left to right at any speed.
That simple vehicle has just two points of contact the bottom part of the front and back wheels.
Any force applied by the treadmill to the front wheel F1 will require an equal and opposite force at the back wheel F2.
There is nothing else to say about that vehicle other than F3 and F4 are also equal and opposite.
You (most of you) are to used with vehicle that have an onboard engine/motor.

As for blackbird I never claimed it will not exceed wind speed and similar designed vehicle could do the same but the reason they can exceed wind speed is energy storage so wind speed is exceeded for a limited amount of time proportional with the amount of stored energy.

The wheels only example in Derks video drives on the lumber and that is a fact and input is on the small wheels so it is powered by the floor again a fact.
There are ways to test that is the case if you do not believe the small wheels (input) drive the large wheel (output).

That hydraulic device is a bit more complex and I think it will likely not move at all so basically a plug. If it moves it will sure not move faster than the flow speed in the same direction as the flow as that will violate the energy conservation law.

--- End quote ---

I already explained how this wheeled vehicle will move to the right when the treadmill moves to the left.  It can't move any other way because of the connection of the wheels by the belt.  For the car to move to the left would require both wheels to turn counter clockwise.  There is no force acting to make that happen. 

What more do you need???

The forces will balance when the car is not accelerating.  In steady state, the net forces on the car will be zero.  If we imagine there are no losses, the forces will not be balanced and the car will accelerate to the right because F2 > F1 in magnitude. 

Maybe you don't understand that the only part of this that determines the movement of the car, is the left wheel rotation, which will be clockwise, same as the right hand wheel, as propelled by the treadmill.

You seem to be really, really bad at understanding which parts of a design are relevant and which are not. 

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