General > General Technical Chat
Electroboom: How Right IS Veritasium?! Don't Electrons Push Each Other??
electrodacus:
--- Quote from: Nominal Animal on July 20, 2022, 01:34:45 pm ---Do note that I do not believe energy flows in the conductor, nor do I believe energy flows outside the conductor.
--- End quote ---
Derek was specific in saying "energy doesn't flow in wires" impling it flows outside wires not that it is not flowing at all.
If we use a charged capacitor instead of battery to keep things simple then potential energy is converted to kinetic energy when switch is closed as electrons will start to move in the wire.
Due to wire resistance (interaction between moving charged particle the electron and material lattice) the energy is lost in the material (we will say increase the conductor temperature) witch then is radiated to space as photons.
So you start with potential energy that is converted into kinetic energy and due to resistance/friction is converted to heat (radiated as photons to space so electromagnetic radiation).
Is like dropping a magnet from some height where you start with potential energy depending on height above ground then when released it converts the potential energy into kinetic energy and then to heat as it impacts the ground assuming plastic collision but if it is elastic it will take longer but in the end it will result in the same amount of heat (multiple charge discharge cycles).
If you release the magnet from same height through a copper pipe the potential energy will be converted into kinetic energy but also heat so there will be way less kinetic energy when it hits the ground as it was already lost as heat due to interaction with the metal pipe.
Total energy converted to heat is exactly the same when magnet just hits the ground or when it slowly drops through a metal pipe.
Magnet drop to ground without a pipe around will be like electron managing to travel through vacuum between the two plates and magnet through pipe is like electron traveling through wire.
electrodacus:
--- Quote from: gnuarm on July 20, 2022, 04:50:49 pm ---Dude, you don't even understand Newton's law which you think you are showing in your image. You completely fail to understand it does not connect F1 to F2.
You are a total fail, not worthy of anyone trying to explain it to you.
--- End quote ---
What happen if you replace the vehicle with pipe (one end of the pipe on treadmill and the other on the red box that is fixed to the ground).
What happens then ?
As the vehicle as it is designed is no different from that pipe since it is a locked gearbox.
If neither the front nor the back wheel's can slip then treadmill will be unable to move.
F1=F2 and F3=F4 until one of the wheels slips and that is a fact.
Nominal Animal:
--- Quote from: electrodacus on July 20, 2022, 04:58:53 pm ---
--- Quote from: Nominal Animal on July 20, 2022, 01:34:45 pm ---Do note that I do not believe energy flows in the conductor, nor do I believe energy flows outside the conductor.
--- End quote ---
Derek was specific in saying "energy doesn't flow in wires" impling it flows outside wires not that it is not flowing at all.
--- End quote ---
You dropped my key point:
I believe it depends on the exact geometry of the system, because there are many ways to transfer energy, even when we inject and extract that energy as current flow (movement of charge carriers).
The energy flows for sure, but it can flow in so many ways that it is silly to claim a specific way unless you very carefully define the system.
Hell, just ask any EE designer how many times their designs had accidental antennae or radiating elements!
In other words, I am saying that anyone claiming the energy is flowing in a specific place without exactly describing the system, is fudging things. Or just plain wrong. It could be one or the other, or both. It just depends on the exact geometry of the system.
Once again, it is very similar to asking "What is the mechanical pump that every human being relies on to live?", and people arguing whether the right answer is the heart or the ATP synthase proton pump in each living human cell. You can make an argument either way, and quibble about the details (like whether the heart can be replaced by something that keeps blood flowing but is not a pump, and whether lack of cellular respiration is sufficient to say the human is no longer living, and so on). It is an useless question, because it is not specific enough.
--- Quote from: electrodacus on July 20, 2022, 04:58:53 pm ---If we use a charged capacitor instead of battery to keep things simple then potential energy is converted to kinetic energy when switch is closed as electrons will start to move in the wire.
--- End quote ---
There is more than just kinetic energy: there is also the energy in the associated electromagnetic fields. In the steady state, DC current, you have a more or less equilibrium state where those associated fields fluctuate (because of nonzero temperature, for example) but stay constant on average, and then you can say the kinetic energy equals the energy in the current flowing through the wire.
In the non-equilibrium case, when the circuit is just formed, among other things you have an electric field that gives the electrons (charge carriers) their initial kick; when the current flow stabilizes, those fields have stabilized too. The start is definitely not what you described; what you described is the steady state with constant DC current flowing.
See what I mean? When you "keep things simple", you modify the original question to suit your model. It's not just you doing this, it is everyone who is claiming a specific behaviour of these kinds of circuits. It's like every single one of you is arguing about a different system, and just fail to realize it!
This is some next-level quantum bikeshedding shit, this is.
electrodacus:
--- Quote from: Nominal Animal on July 20, 2022, 05:55:32 pm ---There is more than just kinetic energy: there is also the energy in the associated electromagnetic fields. In the steady state, DC current, you have a more or less equilibrium state where those associated fields fluctuate (because of nonzero temperature, for example) but stay constant on average, and then you can say the kinetic energy equals the energy in the current flowing through the wire.
In the non-equilibrium case, when the circuit is just formed, among other things you have an electric field that gives the electrons (charge carriers) their initial kick; when the current flow stabilizes, those fields have stabilized too. The start is definitely not what you described; what you described is the steady state with constant DC current flowing.
See what I mean? When you "keep things simple", you modify the original question to suit your model. It's not just you doing this, it is everyone who is claiming a specific behaviour of these kinds of circuits. It's like every single one of you is arguing about a different system, and just fail to realize it!
This is some next-level quantum bikeshedding shit, this is.
--- End quote ---
"There is more than just kinetic energy: there is also the energy in the associated electromagnetic fields."
You are confusing some things.
Before the switch is closed all you have is potential energy no electromagnetic fields. There is a constant electric field inside the capacitor if that is the source instead of a battery which is a bit more complex to describe.
So all you have is stored electrical energy as potential energy in the capacitor due to imbalance of charges on the two plates.
You can even consider this circuit at almost absolute 0 Kelvin and made out of copper (capacitor plates and wires) and everything isolated in a vacuum.
Copper is not a superconductor so it will still have resistance to current flow at this low temperature.
As soon as you close the switch the excess electrons from one plate will move in to wire which is neutrally charged and at the same time on the other plate electrons from the wire will migrate in to the plate with deficit of electrons.
So potential energy is converted in to kinetic energy. While electron wave travels through wire you will have a magnetic field formed around the wire but this is a conservative field same as the electric field inside the capacitor at the start of the experiment and electric field between wires during transient and the smaller one during resistance while at DC
Both the electric and magnetic fields are conservative the energy will not be radiated to space.
The wire temperature will increase and this will over a longer period (way after the capacitor was discharged) will be radiated as infrared radiation to space (this is the electromagnetic radiation in the form of photons).
It seems there is a confusion between the magnetic and electric fields that are conservative fields and the electromagnetic radiation that is due to photons emitted in all directions from the wires.
gnuarm:
--- Quote from: electrodacus on July 20, 2022, 05:05:47 pm ---
--- Quote from: gnuarm on July 20, 2022, 04:50:49 pm ---Dude, you don't even understand Newton's law which you think you are showing in your image. You completely fail to understand it does not connect F1 to F2.
You are a total fail, not worthy of anyone trying to explain it to you.
--- End quote ---
What happen if you replace the vehicle with pipe (one end of the pipe on treadmill and the other on the red box that is fixed to the ground).
What happens then ?
As the vehicle as it is designed is no different from that pipe since it is a locked gearbox.
If neither the front nor the back wheel's can slip then treadmill will be unable to move.
F1=F2 and F3=F4 until one of the wheels slips and that is a fact.
--- End quote ---
You keep saying it's a "locked gearbox" when it isn't. The wheels will spin easily if you pick it up and turn them.
I don't know how you can not be a troll. Literally, NO ONE would say the stupid things you say.
If I had the apparatus, I would be able to move the car with my hand, the wheel on the solid ground would turn because of the friction, making the other wheel turn, moving the treadmill. Easy, peasy.
You clearly are either the stupidest person on Earth, or the world's biggest troll.
Which is it?
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