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| Electroboom: How Right IS Veritasium?! Don't Electrons Push Each Other?? |
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| aetherist:
--- Quote from: hamster_nz on June 28, 2022, 05:35:11 am ---Snice this thread is a about electrons (charges) pushing each other, I've been wondering.... Ignoring other forces (like gravity and magnetism), if we have a stationary electron between two copper places, with 100V across them, the negative charge of the electron will be attracted to the + plate, and repelled by the - plate. I'm pretty sure we all agree to that. What happens if we put that electron inside a small paper box (but still between the two plates) - does it still feel the same forces? (I think yes). Does the paper box feel any force? (I think no). What happens if we put the electron inside a small copper box - does it still feel the same forces? (I think no) Does the copper box feel any force? (I think yes). So if the copper box was able to move it would move while the electron inside the box stays still, as it has no forces acting on it. What does @electrodacus and @aetherist think? --- End quote --- I suspect that the nett charge inside a copper box (Faraday Cage) is zero everywhere, but i might be wrong. The box would i suppose have a nett attraction to one plate or the other (the closer plate). The electron would i suppose have no nett charge force on it, except nett forces affecting its spin/orientation i think. I suppose that every wire is a Faraday Cage. Internal electrons would not know about any charge stuff or electric stuff going on. Except that they would feel the magnetic stuff. Hmmm -- i will havtahava think. |
| DiTBho:
--- Quote from: aetherist on June 27, 2022, 11:09:05 pm ---What is a wire that has zero resistance? What is a wire that is a perfect conductor? What is a wire that is a superconductor? What are the differences? --- End quote --- I think, the difference is in your working model, so inside your head and it depends on what you consider, what you know, and how you describe what you need to achieve your goal. Are you a theoretical physicist? or an engineer? do you have to run a mathematical model on a sub atomic scale, or a radio frequency (4 Ghz) electronic circuit? or a low frequency (<25Mhz)? Depending on your goal, you can treat electrons like little balls (classic physics applied to low speed), you need to treat them like physical waves (classic physics, applied to high speed), or like mathematical probability waves (quantum physics), or like mathematical probability time-independent (experimental theories, e.q. quantum-elector-dynamics and gravity-loop) I think .. it depends ... :-// On Jupiter, due to high gravity and particular atmospheric gas, electrons are free to move like if the whole planet was a big kind of conductor and you have matter that doesn't behave like it does on Earth. When you study lightning, you work with high energy (GWatt) and again the electrons works in a plasma environment (the forth state of matter), which is not what you find with common wires and metallic recticles It's like when you know how a mouse and a bird look like, then you enter in a cave and you see a bat "plasma" is a "bat"? it flies like a bird, but it looks more like a mouse, is is a "flying mouse"? ... you can consider it a "flying mouse", it may/may not work for you, depending on your purpose. Electrons on a slit, are they like photons? are they like tennis balls? or more like waves? Mathematically ... they are like a bat, an animal that you are not familiar with, but are you interested in knowing this for some purpose or are you only interested in measuring the potential field that they manifest microscopically? I'm one of those people who argues that reality depends on how we process it ... so things are just definitions applied to a mind-model |
| electrodacus:
--- Quote from: hamster_nz on June 28, 2022, 05:35:11 am --- What happens if we put the electron inside a small copper box - does it still feel the same forces? (I think no) Does the copper box feel any force? (I think yes). So if the copper box was able to move it would move while the electron inside the box stays still, as it has no forces acting on it. What does @electrodacus and @aetherist think? --- End quote --- The copper box in an electric field will have more electrons on the top side of the box and less on the bottom side (as it is in your diagram). So with or without the copper box the electron will move in the same direction. If you connect the box with a copper wire to any of the two plates then you can consider that a shield. I think we discussed something similar before when we considered a plate in the middle not connected to anything and the fact that electrons will move to one side of the plate if it was in an electric field. Box is similar and electrons from the bottom side will move through the side panels to the top resulting in a much higher number of free electrons on the top side of the box and a deficit of electrons on the bottom face of the box. Edit: I wrote the above last night but thinking about the steady state meaning if you can add that electron in the box (teleport the electron) after the capacitor was charged there should be no electric field inside the box. The electron is just there in theory to ask if there is an electric field in that region and in steady state there is not. There are more electrons on the top plate and proportionally less on the bottom one but they are arranged on the outside facing the plates. Duringing charging if box is already there current will flow through the sides of the box. That current to move electrons from the bottom of the box to the top of the box is what Derek's sees in those first ns through the lamp. If you remove the 100V battery nothing will change there will still be an electric field and capacitor will still be charged. If you short circuit the two plates electrons from bottom plate will flow to the top plate through the wire you used to short circuit the plates and at the same time current will flow through the box as electrons move back from the topside of the box to the bottom side so that everything becomes neutral again. |
| aetherist:
--- Quote from: DiTBho on June 28, 2022, 07:15:40 am --- --- Quote from: aetherist on June 27, 2022, 11:09:05 pm ---What is a wire that has zero resistance? What is a wire that is a perfect conductor? What is a wire that is a superconductor? What are the differences? --- End quote --- I think, the difference is in your working model, so inside your head and it depends on what you consider, what you know, and how you describe what you need to achieve your goal. Are you a theoretical physicist? or an engineer? do you have to run a mathematical model on a sub atomic scale, or a radio frequency (4 Ghz) electronic circuit? or a low frequency (<25Mhz)? Depending on your goal, you can treat electrons like little balls (classic physics applied to low speed), you need to treat them like physical waves (classic physics, applied to high speed), or like mathematical probability waves (quantum physics), or like mathematical probability time-independent (experimental theories, e.q. quantum-elector-dynamics and gravity-loop) I think .. it depends ... :-// On Jupiter, due to high gravity and particular atmospheric gas, electrons are free to move like if the whole planet was a big kind of conductor and you have matter that doesn't behave like it does on Earth. When you study lightning, you work with high energy (GWatt) and again the electrons works in a plasma environment (the forth state of matter), which is not what you find with common wires and metallic recticles It's like when you know how a mouse and a bird look like, then you enter in a cave and you see a bat "plasma" is a "bat"? it flies like a bird, but it looks more like a mouse, is is a "flying mouse"? ... you can consider it a "flying mouse", it may/may not work for you, depending on your purpose. Electrons on a slit, are they like photons? are they like tennis balls? or more like waves? Mathematically ... they are like a bat, an animal that you are not familiar with, but are you interested in knowing this for some purpose or are you only interested in measuring the potential field that they manifest microscopically? I'm one of those people who argues that reality depends on how we process it ... so things are just definitions applied to a mind-model --- End quote --- My problem is that my new (electon) electricity needs the photons (electons) propagating along the outside surface of a wire to hug the wire, due to a slowing on the near sides. These electons also heat the wire due to resistance. If a perfect conductor has zero resistance then there will be no heating. But, according to my theory, if there is zero resistance then there will be zero or very little hugging effect. Hence a perfect conductor would have zero conductance. Zero conductance is in effect infinite resistance. Hence zero resistance gives infinite resistance. And thencely comes the madness. |
| TimFox:
--- Quote from: aetherist on June 28, 2022, 07:51:49 am --- --- End quote --- My problem is that my new (electon) electricity needs the photons (electons) propagating along the outside surface of a wire to hug the wire, due to a slowing on the near sides. These electons also heat the wire due to resistance. If a perfect conductor has zero resistance then there will be no heating. But, according to my theory, if there is zero resistance then there will be zero or very little hugging effect. Hence a perfect conductor would have zero conductance. Zero conductance is in effect infinite resistance. Hence zero resistance gives infinite resistance. And thencely comes the madness. [/quote] This is a reductio ad absurdum, by which you have disproved your own thesis. |
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