Author Topic: 1950s book copyright - can I scan this and upload it?  (Read 17392 times)

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Offline jpb

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Re: 1950s book copyright - can I scan this and upload it?
« Reply #50 on: January 17, 2015, 07:40:09 pm »
Without getting into the rights and wrongs of this particular case,
if you want to scan something quickly, I've found it much quicker to photograph each page instead. Not perhaps as neat as proper scanning but at around 1 or 2 seconds a page instead of 10 to 20 it is a lot faster. This is what I've done to backup my hardback notebooks.
 

Offline TerraHertz

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Re: 1950s book copyright - can I scan this and upload it?
« Reply #51 on: January 17, 2015, 11:47:09 pm »
Without getting into the rights and wrongs of this particular case,
if you want to scan something quickly, I've found it much quicker to photograph each page instead. Not perhaps as neat as proper scanning but at around 1 or 2 seconds a page instead of 10 to 20 it is a lot faster. This is what I've done to backup my hardback notebooks.

I'm very interested in the details of how that went. Could you describe or post pics of the setup you used?
And a sample page image, if possible.  Presumably the file would be larger than the forum 1MB image limit, but if you could put an original full-res one online somewhere, that would be great.
I've only done a few experiments with photo-capture of documents, and haven't liked the results much yet. Maybe I'm doing it wrong.
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Offline Richard Crowley

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Re: 1950s book copyright - can I scan this and upload it?
« Reply #52 on: January 18, 2015, 01:20:42 am »
There are several clever V-shape scanners, both commercial and DIY where you can lay the book open at about 90 degrees and take a photo of each of the opposing pages simultaneously.  Some are inverted where you lay the book on top of the "pyramid".  And some are the opposite where you lay the book in the V-groove "valley". And many of the "face-up" versions have glass plates that hold the pages flat while photographing.  Some are even automated with page-turning gadgets.



 

Offline IanB

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Re: 1950s book copyright - can I scan this and upload it?
« Reply #53 on: January 18, 2015, 02:23:27 am »
In a lower tech way, you can use a camera with a copy stand. The copy stand holds the camera at the right distance and correctly aligned with the page to be photographed. A glass sheet can be used to hold the page flat, and diffuse lighting from the sides can produce even illumination.
I'm not an EE--what am I doing here?
 

Offline TerraHertz

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Re: 1950s book copyright - can I scan this and upload it?
« Reply #54 on: January 18, 2015, 04:45:43 am »
There are several clever V-shape scanners, both commercial and DIY where ...

Those are new to me! Thanks. Now I need to find examples of the resulting page images.
I've been looking at 'book edge scanners' that have existed for a while, but they are expensive.
It seems to me that not having the book level, so weights can be applied to suit the need, would be a big disadvantage.

In a lower tech way, you can use a camera with a copy stand. The copy stand holds the camera at the right distance and correctly aligned with the page to be photographed. A glass sheet can be used to hold the page flat, and diffuse lighting from the sides can produce even illumination.

Yes, I know. I've found a few descriptions of this method, and tried it myself. Unfortunately it wasn't adequate for what I needed that time. But further experiments will happen. 
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Offline Richard Crowley

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Re: 1950s book copyright - can I scan this and upload it?
« Reply #55 on: January 18, 2015, 05:18:40 am »
... I need to find examples of the resulting page images.
Probably higher resolution and quality than typical scanners. They commonly use inexpensive point-n-shoot cameras. Certain models are easily hacked to trigger both page cameras at the same time.

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It seems to me that not having the book level, so weights can be applied to suit the need, would be a big disadvantage.
The weight of the book holds the pages against the two glass plates in the inverted version.
In the version where the pages face up, that is why they have the glass "V" shape plates that hold the pages flat while imaging.
 

Offline Chris Jones

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Re: 1950s book copyright - can I scan this and upload it?
« Reply #56 on: January 18, 2015, 07:23:26 am »
Here is a book that I scanned and uploaded : https://archive.org/details/DesignOfAerostaticBearings
I was lucky to be able to contact the author and get his permission (see note on the last page). As we could not tell whether the publisher held any rights (and the publisher went out of business), I contacted all of the publishers that we thought might be successors to the rights, and they all said they had never heard of that book, so that would be some kind of comeback if they ever complained in the future.

I am sorry about the two missing pages and the scanning quality in general but I did it a long time ago and the library where I found it has long since discarded the physical book and deleted it from their catalogue, the library has been closed, and been sold by the council and turned into a housing development for rich people, so I can't go back and do it again. (All the more reason why I'm glad I did it though.)

You might find this book interesting if you want to know about the bearings used in drills at PCB factories, and in the saws used for cutting up silicon wafers into chips.

If you scan any books, wherever you upload them, please also upload to archive.org too.
 

Offline jpb

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Re: 1950s book copyright - can I scan this and upload it?
« Reply #57 on: January 18, 2015, 01:10:20 pm »
Without getting into the rights and wrongs of this particular case,
if you want to scan something quickly, I've found it much quicker to photograph each page instead. Not perhaps as neat as proper scanning but at around 1 or 2 seconds a page instead of 10 to 20 it is a lot faster. This is what I've done to backup my hardback notebooks.

I'm very interested in the details of how that went. Could you describe or post pics of the setup you used?
And a sample page image, if possible.  Presumably the file would be larger than the forum 1MB image limit, but if you could put an original full-res one online somewhere, that would be great.
I've only done a few experiments with photo-capture of documents, and haven't liked the results much yet. Maybe I'm doing it wrong.
I did it very crudely as I was only using it to backup my notebook which was hardbound so I just used my cheap compact camera with no flash and with some fairly bright external lighting (led desk lamp I think) and just turned the pages by hand and photographed them. I think I then compressed the photos further when I'd transferred them to computer.
All I wanted was a readable record to preserve hand written data. So, no my results weren't brilliant but plenty good enough for me.

If I was going to do a better job on a book (especially one that was removed from its binding) I'd set up a DSLR on a tripod pre-focused to a table top with lighting on at least two sides - this may take a little while to setup. And then hand feed in the sheets, take photo, turn sheet, take photo, transfer sheet to out pile and so on. Cameras automatically number the photos.

Probably the results will never be as good as a scanner, but with the right setup it should be perfectly useable and much quicker per page (compared to cheap scanners - I know there some very fast and very expensive scanners out there like the one used by the British Museum to scan their archives).
 

Offline Zero999

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Re: 1950s book copyright - can I scan this and upload it?
« Reply #58 on: January 18, 2015, 04:06:59 pm »
Please reveal to us how you propose to pay the people who produce and distribute all that "free" information and entertainment?  And if you can accomplish that, maybe you can take a crack at how you propose to incentivize the creative process to get these things going in the first place. 

Man, you really think the creative process requires "incentivizing" with money? You are obviously not artistically inclined.  :-DD
Yes, innovation, art and music existed long before copyright law so anyone who says copyright violation will kill music, art, software etc. is wrong.
 

Offline TerraHertz

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Re: 1950s book copyright - can I scan this and upload it?
« Reply #59 on: January 20, 2015, 12:59:44 am »
... I need to find examples of the resulting page images.
Probably higher resolution and quality than typical scanners. They commonly use inexpensive point-n-shoot cameras. Certain models are easily hacked to trigger both page cameras at the same time.
Was that a typo? Do you really think CCD cameras (even high end ones) are better resolution than scanners? No, that's not true at all.
Take the Canon 5D Mk III   22.3 megapixels.  (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_Canon_EOS_digital_cameras)  Resolution is 5760 × 3840 pixels for the image.
Even a cheap A4 scanner, set to only 600 dpi, is  7050 x 4950 pixels (11.75" x 600, x 8.25" x 600)
Set it to 1200 dpi and it's 14,100 x 9,900 pixels per image. 139.6 Megapixels. With absolutely no lens and perspective distortions.
And slightly better scanners, still costing a lot less than high end cameras like the Canon 5D, go to far higher dpi resolutions. Then there's A3 scanners. And above that, map scanners.

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Quote
It seems to me that not having the book level, so weights can be applied to suit the need, would be a big disadvantage.
The weight of the book holds the pages against the two glass plates in the inverted version.
In the version where the pages face up, that is why they have the glass "V" shape plates that hold the pages flat while imaging.
I don't think you've ever tried scanning books. For starters, the 'weight of the book' very often isn't enough to get the pages flat on the glass. If a bunch of pages have any tendency to bow, it takes a lot of force to hold them flat. With that sloped pyramid design, how are you going to weigh the book down if it needs it (which it will)? Holding it by hand gets stale real fast.

Hence I'm skeptical that a fixed "V" of glass plates will be adequate except in easy cases.
But, like so many things, one never knows for sure until actually trying it. Advertising brochures regardless.
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Offline TerraHertz

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Re: 1950s book copyright - can I scan this and upload it?
« Reply #60 on: January 20, 2015, 02:53:43 am »
Here is a book that I scanned and uploaded : https://archive.org/details/DesignOfAerostaticBearings
Thanks, that's definitely a book worth saving.
Quote
I was lucky to be able to contact the author and get his permission (see note on the last page). As we could not tell whether the publisher held any rights (and the publisher went out of business), I contacted all of the publishers that we thought might be successors to the rights, and they all said they had never heard of that book, so that would be some kind of comeback if they ever complained in the future.

Ironic isn't it? By 'we' you include the author? The author couldn't determine who held the copyright? It's gone beyond ridiculous.

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I am sorry about the two missing pages and the scanning quality in general but I did it a long time ago and the library where I found it has long since discarded the physical book and deleted it from their catalogue, the library has been closed, and been sold by the council and turned into a housing development for rich people, so I can't go back and do it again. (All the more reason why I'm glad I did it though.)

Tragic. Both the library disposing of it, and then being disposed of itself. A common story.
But hey, although there are zero copies listed in abebooks' vast catalog, Amazon does have ONE.
http://www.amazon.com/Design-aerostatic-bearings-J-Powell/dp/0853332045
Only $358 dollars. Ha ha, you should have stolen that one from the library just before they destroyed it.

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You might find this book interesting if you want to know about the bearings used in drills at PCB factories, and in the saws used for cutting up silicon wafers into chips.
Personally, only idle curiosity. But the loss of this kind of information is what I was going on about in the intro to my 'on scanning'. It wouldn't take much of a social structure 'hiccup' to totally lose such knowledge.

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If you scan any books, wherever you upload them, please also upload to archive.org too.
My earliest effort was this: http://everist.org/archives/scans/RAR-books/Truenames_V_Vinge_RAR-book.jpg
It's a RARbook - a zip file appended to a JPG image. Needs WinRAR to unpack. The book is html OCR'd text and embedded images, but the html was done long ago and is very primitive. I wasn't happy with the result, and am still searching for a packaging format I consider acceptable.
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Offline Richard Crowley

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Re: 1950s book copyright - can I scan this and upload it?
« Reply #61 on: January 20, 2015, 02:56:28 am »
Do you really think CCD cameras (even high end ones) are better resolution than scanners? No, that's not true at all.
Take the Canon 5D Mk III   22.3 megapixels.  Resolution is 5760 × 3840 pixels for the image.
Even a cheap A4 scanner, set to only 600 dpi, is  7050 x 4950 pixels (11.75" x 600, x 8.25" x 600)
How many 8.25 x 11.75 inch books are you scanning? Page sizes are typically smaller than that.
How many typical offset-printed books (of any size) even have resolution of 600 DPI? Especially older ones printed on rough paper.
Yes I have scanned several books. Flatbed scanners are popular for amateurs with lots of spare time and only one book to scan.

Whether you are using a camera or a scanner, holding the page flat against glass is an absolute requirement. 
Just letting the page fly around in the air a waste of time and effort.
 

Offline Sigmoid

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Re: 1950s book copyright - can I scan this and upload it?
« Reply #62 on: January 20, 2015, 07:35:49 pm »
If we don't know what's right and what's wrong, we have become barbarians.

We know right from wrong. The US copyright system is wrong.

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How is this wrong?

Copying a book without copyright is stealing.

And Robin Hood is an international hero.

What would you react if some squatters moved into your vacation home because 99.9% of the time, you are not using it?

A vacation home is a highly personal space. I suggest an alternative. There's a ruinous building in a downtown area owned by an investor that is holding it, waiting for property prices to rise. Maybe nobody from the owner has been to the property in a decade, and it's unlikely that anyone will have a look at it for another decade (except for the people living around it who need to put up with the ugly ruin and the rising rents due to far too much "buy and hold" investment going on).

And squatters move in who would otherwise be living on the streets, paint the walls with colorful art, and turn it into an artists' enclave.

In this case, I fully support the right of the squatters to utilize unutilized resources for the common good. Feel free to call me a communist.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2015, 07:58:38 pm by Sigmoid »
 

Offline Sigmoid

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Re: 1950s book copyright - can I scan this and upload it?
« Reply #63 on: January 20, 2015, 07:57:56 pm »
(Also, if the question had been "can I take this 1950 book, reprint it, and sell it to make a fortune", I'd also say that's immoral. But that wasn't the question.)
 

Offline mtdoc

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Re: 1950s book copyright - can I scan this and upload it?
« Reply #64 on: January 20, 2015, 08:12:15 pm »
Quote
How is this wrong?

Copying a book without copyright is stealing.

Not so. It depends on what and why you are copying.  As I pointed out in Reply #18 of this topic, the Fair Use Statute permits copying material for educational, non profit and some other purposes.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2015, 08:33:51 pm by mtdoc »
 


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