General > General Technical Chat
Electronics industry in the west (the lack of it)...(re-posted without naming)
ocset:
Hi,
I do most profusely apologise to the forum for making mention of a certain global company by name in my previous post, I should have not done that. Please may I now re-post the below, my having now deleted that name, and all reference to it?
Does anybody now think its time for the West (and others) to start becoming self dependent as regards to engineering equipment, especially electronics equipment? Eg power supplies and other electronics...
China, by sheer honest hard slogging work, has now deservedly become the world’s new super power. Nobody would disagree with that.
The Chinese will very soon realise that they are now the wealthiest nation in the world, and will cease offering the west electronics equipment at a fantastically low price….and the West will have to start making its own electronics again….this will be an enormous shock to the west…so the west should start becoming self dependent right now……otherwise doom.
To those who still think that China is a poor country, in need of the West to buy its products…..just look on the web. Also, China will soon be the owner of the entire South China Sea, and all of the vast minerals/Natural Gas and vast oil wealth that it contains. The Philipines, who have seen China build a militarised island in its own territorial coastal waters, in response, have quite happily asked if China would make the Philipines a province of China (look on the www what President Duterte said).
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In particular, the Power Supply Design & Manufacture industry should be brought back to the west right now.
This is because Power Supply is a “key sector” of electronics. If a country disposes of its own Power Supply industry, then it looses out massively in all other sectors of electronics.
This is because “Power Supply” is the only sector of electronics where any electronics student could be almost guaranteed of being able to develop the skills necessary to become a Power Supply designer at some level. (as long as they put in some decent work) This is because Power supply design, at its base level, is easier than all other sectors of electronics. In all other sectors of electronics, only a small percentage of students could guarantee being able to develop design capability, because these other sectors are technically harder than Power supply engineering. (at its base level)
As such, if a country disposes of its Power Supply sector, then there will be no jobs for the majority of graduating electronics students…since they mostly won’t manage to make the grade in these other harder sectors of electronics…and consequently numbers enrolling for electronics courses will dwindle away…as they have done in the west. And when you have only a small number of students enrolling for electronics courses, this then hits all sectors of electronics…..resulting in engineer shortages in all sectors of electronics.
Power Supply is also a “key sector”, because virtually every single electrical/electronics product needs a power supply of some description. (apart from simple heaters and toasters etc)
Another reason why any student could realistically expect to be able to develop Power Supply engineering design skills, is that in the Power Supply sector , the Simulators are free of charge, (LTspice) and the test equipment and components are cheap and affordable such that someone could actually design and build a power supply on their kitchen table. –And its essential to actually get real hardware experience in order to become an electronics hardware designer….In other sectors of electronics…the simulators and test equipment and components are far too expensive (eg RF & microwave) for students to be able to afford….so few will be able to get into it....most just won't be able to get that essential hands-on hardware design experience in these other sectors.
tom66:
Another treez gem.
The majority of power supplies are low cost AC-to-DC switch mode units. In these applications cost is the primary driver, so they are made where labour is cheap. There are a number of UK manufacturers that make speciality power supplies for aerospace, medical, or test equipment (for instance TTi still make most or all of their kit in the UK.) And there are power modules that are made in the West - for instance TI, at least until recently, was making some of their iModule DC-DC converters in the USA, and Murata manufacture(d) these in Japan and Europe.
Your assertion that power supply design is something for just undergraduates is just wrong. Designing a flyback converter that can be low cost, reliable, efficient and meet EMC requirements is a complex job. When I worked at Echostar we had one guy who was entirely involved in testing the Chinese power supplies for our STBs, to see if they were any good. A great deal of them failed the aggressive tests we set out (despite being consumer electronics devices), but our purchasing power allowed us to get manufacturers to make the necessary changes. Most of these passed EMC (usually only by a few dB, but they passed), but failed under conditions like excessive load and case temperature. There is a requirement in the EU/EN standards regarding the maximum temperature that the case of a consumer electronics product can reach, excluding cooking/thermal appliances.
ocset:
--- Quote ---Your assertion that power supply design is something for just undergraduates is just wrong.
--- End quote ---
Thanks, but that wasnt my assertion. I freely confess that at its highest level, power supply engineering is just as hard as any other form.
Do you mean TT electronics?
TT electronics owns Stadium group, which owns stontronics...Stontronics is a massive importer of Far Eastern power supplies into UK and elsewhere.
https://stontronics.com/stadium-group-integrates-power-business/
Should power supplies like this found in Australia be designed and manufactured in the Far East?
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/dodgy-solar-inverter-catches-fire-this-morning/
To get enough specialist power supply designers in any country...one needs a "breeding ground" of power supply engineers working on the lower end stuff.
dmills:
A small generic power supply is a COMPONENT, and should be treated that way, I don't build that any more then I build my own transistors, mosfets or processors.
Jelly bean power supplies are boring, and add nearly no value to a product.
I would need a LOT of convincing before I was willing to bother designing my own jellybean mains flyback on a board I was doing, I mean it is not hard to datasheet 'engineer' something using the chips and magnetic components from one of the usual suspects, but then I have to convince the NRTLs and people like PSE for the Japanese market that my thing is acceptable.
If I was doing real consumer stuff at real volume then maybe, but that lives in a target BOM place that I have no clue how to meet.
The value add is in the systems engineering to solve an actual customer problem, not in making mundane things that you can buy for a few pounds each.
An IRM-30 costs me £7 in reasonable volumes, and I have thousands in the field, they almost never fail (I think I have had two fail on early life soak, nothing else), I probably could not meet that COG doing it myself, let alone the NRE cost of certifying it with basically everyone.
Last thing we need is loads of expensive engineering time going on designing the stuff that is not profitable except at mad scale, far better to spend that time on stuff that makes a difference to the customer.
Regards, Dan.
tggzzz:
Treez, regrettably I conclude that you will never be successful. Sorry.
To borrow concepts from Dragon's Den, "you are uninvestible; I couldn't invest in you". Why? Because I invest in individuals that are adaptable to changing marketplaces/understanding/situations. Marketplaces, understanding and situations will always be evolving, and companies and people must change with them.
You repeatedly demonstrate that you cannot recognise changes in the marketplace, and repeatedly demonstrate that you cannot adapt to the changes.
"So, I'm out".
But there might be hope: if you manage to learn to pivot, then you might become successful. If not, then it is a slow decline for you.
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