Electronics products...where are they made/designed?

[Sighound36]

Good grief, is that chip on your shoulder weighing you down to much? having issues standing straight in sunlight?  Need to release some venom?

Many years ago when I worked for those nasty capitalists who dared to be-grudgingly fund my meger existence. Purchased a factory in the far East not China.

All of a sudden components were significantly cheaper and easier to obtain (overlord company had installed QA team inside factory) for a good 10 years profits were up and costs were down. Then those hard working under paid workers felt they need better pay and conditions. Who'd have thought it?

Now back to 2021 this year we have made a bold step and purchased a small manufacturing facility nothing Dyson like  around 300 square meters. We are  designing, machining, assembling all our products with as much British expertise, and components as humanly possible. We feel  we can achieve around 85-88% of the total BOM. Certain items like inductors, capacitors etc will come from China even if they are badged Wurth etc. Fact of life and the way the huge manufacturing cities have sprung up in China etc al

We lost a great deal of our manufacturing base here some 20 years when the great rush to go east young man was initiated and our own ability to produce goods correctly all but disappeared, so a heavy reliance is placed I can get it from  Ali express  etc for $2 shipped.

Yes the products will be more expensive than the usual suspects however there is a market for genuine home grown quality goods again maybe not Gtech in size but its working well

[Zero999]

It  also does western countries great harm to get other countries to do most of their general electronics.
Skills that are needed here drain away. A lack of skilled people when those skills are in fact needed here.
I dont think it does China any good either....getting payed a pittance by western middle men.....who become multi millionaires for doing very little...just placing orders

Why do you keep changing your screen name?

China has benefitted from manufacturing, as has the west. Would you like it, if electronic products cost more than double the price? My parents tell me that back when TV first became popular, back in the 50s, a television set would cost two months wages.

[Faringdon]

Philips and Tridonic are highly successful European  lighting co's, that  get (or would get if needed) government money to survive (the government has their backs) .....the upshot is that the engineers that work at these co's often leave and  use the electronics skills to help other start up co's which helps the economy in europe. And better still....most times, these co's turn in a handsome profit.
UK does very little of this nurturing, and hence UK has reported a negative balance of trades each year for the last 35 years. UK has over 2 trillion of debt. UK's debt to GDP is now round 100%......showing that importing all your electronics does not make any country more wealthy...it makes the western  middle men more wealthy.
China  and the far east will soon stop selling cheaply to the west, they will increase prices...and why shouldnt they. The Chinese are good hard working peoples. The salt of the earth. The Chinese will soon  own all of the South China Sea, and will be the only country in the world to have suceeded without invasions etc. So China will soon tire of selling cheaply to the west....other far eastern countrys will follow suit. The south china sea contains vast oil and mineral wealth...China will be way above and will be the worlds most powerful nation...they wont want to sell cheaply to the west...........China recently went to Mars.
Already western co's cannot even design anything...because when something electronics has been designed.....it needs electronics engineers to maintain the design....obselesence /nil stock etc...the decimation of the uk electronics industry means that there just arent enough of such electronics engineers around......in uk, you find  its difficult to find an  EE engineer who can find a replacement for a nil stocked  El cap....so with the decimation of uk electronics, comes the reduction in numbers of EE's needed to maintain designs, and thence its not possible to do  electronics design in uk...or less so, due to the decimation of uk electronics......in uk, try and find an electronics engineer in any region that can pick a BOM for an electronics product...youll struggle......or one that can change the footprint on a pcb of some device..youll struggle.....all due to outsourcing of electronics to the far east.

[ebastler]

@Faringdon -- relax... If electronics products from China indeed become more expensive in the future, more electronics design/manufacturing/jobs will come back to Europe and the UK. I think you can trust market forces to balance this out.

Frankly, in my book it would be a good thing if consumer electronics get more expensive. Encouraging more thoughtful purchases, longer use, and better repairability would all benefit the environment.

On a separate note: If you want a fresh start on this forum, with yet another new account -- why start with the exact same discussions which have dragged down your credibility before?  Or is it that you don't care about the reputation of your forum personality, and just want to make sure it cannot be linked to your real-world name? In that case, just avoid those wixsite links and you should be alright...

[Zero999]

The jobs have gone, never to return. If China put their prices up, production will most likely move to another low wage country. Even if manufacturing does return to the west, it will be heavilly automated and create few jobs.

[SteveyG]

True, but they all are produced independently despite coming from the same factory. Waitrose, M&S etc had very differing requirements from the cheaper brands.

wanna bet? i spent several weeks working in a factory and saw it with my own eyes,  the only difference is how its packaged,so waitrose cheapest brand is exactly the same as tescos cheapest,waitrose expensive is the same as aldis finest, apart from being in different packaging.Another clever trick is a brand advertising they dont make for any one else,no they dont, but they dont make it themselves either ,the product is made by there mother company who also churn out the same product for anyone who wants to buy it.

What factory is this? If the product managers witnessed that, they would have lost their contract instantly.

[fcb]

True, but they all are produced independently despite coming from the same factory. Waitrose, M&S etc had very differing requirements from the cheaper brands.

wanna bet? i spent several weeks working in a factory and saw it with my own eyes,  the only difference is how its packaged,so waitrose cheapest brand is exactly the same as tescos cheapest,waitrose expensive is the same as aldis finest, apart from being in different packaging.Another clever trick is a brand advertising they dont make for any one else,no they dont, but they dont make it themselves either ,the product is made by there mother company who also churn out the same product for anyone who wants to buy it.

What factory is this? If the product managers witnessed that, they would have lost their contract instantly.

Themadhippy is not wrong. Not always the identical product (although often is), sometimes they have slightly different formulation - but same production lines.

[Faringdon]

If China put their prices up, production will most likely move to another low wage country. Even if manufacturing does return to the west, it will be heavilly automated and create few jobs.

Thanks, i'm not really talking specifically of production...i am speaking of entire electronics engineering companies, such as Gtech, being taken out of UK and done elsewhere. The whole shebang...(obviously the sales and marketting gets left in UK)

@Faringdon -- relax... If electronics products from China indeed become more expensive in the future, more electronics design/manufacturing/jobs will come back to Europe and the UK.

...Thanks, yes, I think it would come back to Germany, and Benelux etc, because they have been responsible, and have kept engineering going....i  am highly doubtful that any jobs would come back to UK......the "knowledge" of electronics would have left UK to the extent that it cant come back to UK...the people who run UK dont seem to want engineering here.
The problems of those such as myself, would easily be solved by a move to Mainland EU, but since Brexit, its all but impossible.

[ebastler]

The problems of those such as myself, would easily be solved by a move to Mainland EU, but since Brexit, its all but impossible.

Yes, it would have been easier if you had moved to an EU country before the end of 2020. Then the UK/EU "Withdrawal Agreement" would have given you the right to stay, continuing into 2021 and beyond I believe.

But to my knowledge it should still be quite possible to take residency in Europe if you find a job here. Assuming that you have an academic degree, the "Blue Card EU" option should apply. It does require you to present a specific job offer, and your right to stay in the country will only last while you are on that job, I believe.  But you can of course look for a follow-on job (in the same or a different country) and take residency there if you have another job offer in hand, using the same Blue Card mechanism.

[Just_another_Dave]

The problems of those such as myself, would easily be solved by a move to Mainland EU, but since Brexit, its all but impossible.

Yes, it would have been easier if you had moved to an EU country before the end of 2020. Then the UK/EU "Withdrawal Agreement" would have given you the right to stay, continuing into 2021 and beyond I believe.

But to my knowledge it should still be quite possible to take residency in Europe if you find a job here. Assuming that you have an academic degree, the "Blue Card EU" option should apply. It does require you to present a specific job offer, and your right to stay in the country will only last while you are on that job, I believe.  But you can of course look for a follow-on job (in the same or a different country) and take residency there if you have another job offer in hand, using the same Blue Card mechanism.

Some European countries also offer residence permits for enterpreneurs. However, I don’t know which requirements need to be met to be able to apply for it

[Gyro]

Philips and Tridonic are highly successful European  lighting co's, that  get (or would get if needed) government money to survive (the government has their backs) .....the upshot is that the engineers that work at these co's often leave and  use the electronics skills to help other start up co's which helps the economy in europe. And better still....most times, these co's turn in a handsome profit.
...

As I'm sure we are all aware, Philips spun off its lighting division as 'Signify' some years ago, and Osram has done the same with  LEDVANCE (owned by a Chinese consortium). The consumer facing names might remain the same, but not the companies developing and manufacturing them. Maybe they prefer Yen to government euros.

I have just taken apart the only Philips lamp in our house, the most recently purchased (the rest being supermarket and DIY store own brands which have all lasted far longer without failure) which has failed due to Smoked Individual LEDs. Apparently this is a common problem due to poor quality and over-driving. Philips (sorry, Signify) appear to have developed significant quality and reliability issues from anecdotal evidence among electricians.

[ebastler]

As I'm sure we are all aware, Philips spun off its lighting division as 'Signify' some years ago, and Osram has done the same with  LEDVANCE (owned by a Chinese consortium). The consumer facing names might remain the same, but not the companies developing and manufacturing them. Maybe they prefer Yen to government euros.

Just to clarify: While LEDVANCE (ex Osram) is indeed owned by a Chinese consortium, I understand that Signify went public and nearly all of their stock is free-float. As of 2020, the largest shareholder was Blackrock, owning 3.5% of the shares, followed by Norges Bank, Allianz, JP Morgan. Not sure those are nice guys, but they are US- and EU-based.

Headquarters for LEDVANCE and Signify remain in Munich and Eindhoven (Netherlands) respectively, and I don't think the significant employee base at those locations has changed much since the spinouts.

[Gyro]

An entertaining rant on LED lighting from David Savery. Btw, the previous video covered the upcoming removal of lamp types from the market (I can't find the recent thread on the subject but it does clarify nicely).

The rant about main brand lamp manufacturers starts at around 5 mins in. It would appear from his personal experience that LEDVANCE  are doing a rather better job than Signify at the moment, with Crompton brand lamps being outlasted by their packaging.

It is of course anecdotal evidence but he does do a lot of installs and has a lot of customers. Usually entertaining viewing anyway (Parental Advisory).

[Pineapple Dan]

Philips and Tridonic are highly successful European  lighting co's, that  get (or would get if needed) government money to survive (the government has their backs) .....the upshot is that the engineers that work at these co's often leave and  use the electronics skills to help other start up co's which helps the economy in europe. And better still....most times, these co's turn in a handsome profit.
...

As I'm sure we are all aware, Philips spun off its lighting division as 'Signify' some years ago, and Osram has done the same with  LEDVANCE (owned by a Chinese consortium). The consumer facing names might remain the same, but not the companies developing and manufacturing them. Maybe they prefer Yen to government euros.

I have just taken apart the only Philips lamp in our house, the most recently purchased (the rest being supermarket and DIY store own brands which have all lasted far longer without failure) which has failed due to Smoked Individual LEDs. Apparently this is a common problem due to poor quality and over-driving. Philips (sorry, Signify) appear to have developed significant quality and reliability issues from anecdotal evidence among electricians.

"Philips" LED bulbs have really taken a turn for the worst. Last year I had a few that only stayed lighthing for a few hours before they popped

[Faringdon]

Hi,
OK, we forget that the Chinese are good hard working people, honest and kindred spirits. Decent upstanding , hard working people who have a better sense of community towards each other , and others, than we westerners. They are not as greedy as us westerners. They are more moral.
They havent been treated too well by the west in the past either...
They dont owe the west anything.....if I am a Chinese guy and some westerner  comes to me telling me to design and make his electronics and make him rich......then i maybe think, well, i'll design you some dodgy electronics so you go out of business...then ill find a different westerner (who i can pay much less)  to sell  the products to your western market, whilst you have gone out of business selling the dodgy stuff that i deliberately designed dodgy  for you.....

So how do Western middle men avoid this type  of thing when they try and get products designed and built in China for their  western market? Or dont they?...maybe a great many go to the wall?...maybe the Gtech's are the minority who somehow manage to do it and survive?

Surely the electronics designer is king? Surely the western middle man treads a dangerous path? Most are selling Chinese stuff that they have no clue how to evaluate the schematic of.......i've worked for western middle men of electronics who didnt know what a linear regulator was.

[PlainName]

So how do Western middle men avoid this type  of thing when they try and get products designed and built in China for their  western market?

I'm sure someone around here has already posted this, or a similar page, and it might be worth your while browsing the site:

https://harrisbricken.com/chinalawblog/china-nnn-agreements/

[Bassman59]

Hi,
OK, we forget that the Chinese are good hard working people, honest and kindred spirits. Decent upstanding , hard working people who have a better sense of community towards each other , and others, than we westerners. They are not as greedy as us westerners. They are more moral.
They havent been treated too well by the west in the past either...
They dont owe the west anything.....if I am a Chinese guy and some westerner  comes to me telling me to design and make his electronics and make him rich......then i maybe think, well, i'll design you some dodgy electronics so you go out of business...then ill find a different westerner (who i can pay much less)  to sell  the products to your western market, whilst you have gone out of business selling the dodgy stuff that i deliberately designed dodgy  for you.....

So how do Western middle men avoid this type  of thing when they try and get products designed and built in China for their  western market? Or dont they?...maybe a great many go to the wall?...maybe the Gtech's are the minority who somehow manage to do it and survive?

Surely the electronics designer is king? Surely the western middle man treads a dangerous path? Most are selling Chinese stuff that they have no clue how to evaluate the schematic of.......i've worked for western middle men of electronics who didnt know what a linear regulator was.

Blueskull, is that you?

[coppice]

Gtech was started by Nick Grey  if his products are any thing related to other brands that would be VAX as he used to work for them. https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/gtech-founded-by-nick-grey-cleans-up-h909bh5xs

Does that make Nick Grey an anti-vaxxer?

[floobydust]

It's just a touch of bait added to the OP, with a sprinkle of troll and eye of newt, leg of toad.
This helps fuel a pointless discussion that can only spiral around in circles and piss off the Internet lol

[coppice]

"Philips" LED bulbs have really taken a turn for the worst. Last year I had a few that only stayed lighthing for a few hours before they popped

Have Philips LED bulbs ever been well designed? In the early days the Philips bulbs I tested got up to some eye wateringly high temperatures. I have no idea how they survived this for any length of time.

[floobydust]

Philips LED bulbs were really good, especially CRI but long gone to extra cheapsville. I have a bunch that failed, electrolytic baked and dried up or open LED's, they didn't last more than 1-1/2years night time use. They just run too hot, even worse than older ones. Philips changed to a single COB in all their spots, even past 15W and hurrah you get a dot of bright light. Older spots were an array of like 2835's and very nice, wide angle.

[Zero999]

Hi,
OK, we forget that the Chinese are good hard working people, honest and kindred spirits. Decent upstanding , hard working people who have a better sense of community towards each other , and others, than we westerners. They are not as greedy as us westerners. They are more moral.
They havent been treated too well by the west in the past either...
They dont owe the west anything.....if I am a Chinese guy and some westerner  comes to me telling me to design and make his electronics and make him rich......then i maybe think, well, i'll design you some dodgy electronics so you go out of business...then ill find a different westerner (who i can pay much less)  to sell  the products to your western market, whilst you have gone out of business selling the dodgy stuff that i deliberately designed dodgy  for you.....

So how do Western middle men avoid this type  of thing when they try and get products designed and built in China for their  western market? Or dont they?...maybe a great many go to the wall?...maybe the Gtech's are the minority who somehow manage to do it and survive?

Surely the electronics designer is king? Surely the western middle man treads a dangerous path? Most are selling Chinese stuff that they have no clue how to evaluate the schematic of.......i've worked for western middle men of electronics who didnt know what a linear regulator was.

Blueskull, is that you?

No it's treez. I don't know why he keeps changing his name. I thought you have to ask a moderator to do that? If so, I don't see a problem with someone occassionally changing their name, or just doing so slightly, like I did, but doing it every month is annoying.

[Gyro]

'ocset' was the treez name change. Faringdon is a duplicate membership.

[Zero999]

'ocset' was the treez name change. Faringdon is a duplicate membership.

Do the moderators know?

Sock puppetry is normally against the rules on all forums I've been part of. Is that not the case here?

[Gyro]

Err, sometimes it appears, it seems to depend on how many socks you are wearing at any one time...

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/supporters-lounge/treez-how-many-more-accounts-are-acceptable/