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Electronics whiz Elon Musk is now the world's richest person

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ogden:

--- Quote from: Halcyon on January 09, 2021, 10:22:52 am ---
--- Quote from: tom66 on January 09, 2021, 10:12:34 am ---
--- Quote from: ogden on January 09, 2021, 07:17:55 am ---
--- Quote from: Halcyon on January 09, 2021, 05:58:32 am ---Tesla sells their cars at a loss. They make their money from "green" certificates in the US.

--- End quote ---
Really? Could you please provide links to resources supporting your claims? I know that Subsidies for Tesla finished at the end of 2019. TSLA reports do not show any "sell at loss" either.

--- End quote ---

Yup.  It's nonsense.  Tesla has a gross margin of about 20% on every car they sell.  Less on Model 3/Y, more on Model S/X.

Most automakers would KILL for a 20% GM.

--- End quote ---

Would you like to link to figures? 20% on every car? That is laughable and demonstrably untrue.

--- End quote ---

I already linked pdf which says automotive GM is 25.4% including "green" certificates and 17% when we deduce them:

https://tesla.gcs-web.com/static-files/f41f4254-f1cc-4929-a0b6-6623b00475a6

sandalcandal:

--- Quote from: Halcyon on January 09, 2021, 08:09:19 am ---Really? You didn't know this? I though this was fairly common knowledge. Tesla making a profit has nothing to do with the manufacture of vehicles. Anyone who knows anything about Tesla and their vehicles seems to know this? Those subsidies for EV still exist in the US today.

Here is a brief overview. This is not the only source of the same information either, feel free to investigate yourself.



--- End quote ---
Need to watch that video fully but looks like a rant video with opinions based off 2nd hand news articles. Edit: I really hope you're not basing your opinion on this video alone and pushing it so heavily without looking at some first hand information.

Here is a video (1:13-8:49) by a business analyst (with very pro-tesla interests) using first hand information and the actual numbers rather than flinging around hearsay. In particular looking at how the company balances up without regulatory credits. Tesla is not losing money on their cars or as a company even without regulatory credits but the extra cash is obviously beneficial to grow the company.


Well worth watching this debate about Tesla's value as a company. It address lots of points people have brought up or probably will bring up.

Edit: Another albeit less less productive debate (same pro-tesla bull vs different bear) https://youtu.be/19Xkj2PKOV4

tom66:
Their gross margins are 35%+ for made in China Model 3 according to analysis.  https://thenextavenue.com/2020/06/10/teslas-model-3-profit-margin-is-35-and-it-can-double/

You'd need to ask Sandy Munro what his thoughts are on the newer Model 3's but they are profitable on a per car basis, after all manufacturing costs.   Can't recall where I got the 20% figure from but remember reading it from investor analysis.

Note I don't have any investment or personal interest in TSLA (I hold some S&P500 in an index tracker, but <2% of that is TSLA), other than hoping that they succeed as a company (or that some other big EV succeeds, like ID.3)

nctnico:
Margin isn't everything. In the end the R&D needs to be paid for as well. It is not a secret that Tesla receives a huge amount of money for their CO2 emission rights (which in itself is insane because it means that for each EV out there, there is also an ICE vehicle creating the CO2 output on top of the CO2 output most EVs cause). The big question is whether Tesla can continue their R&D efforts at a sufficient level in order to stay ahead of the competition without the revenue stream from the CO2 emission rights. Either way I don't think Tesla will ever dissapear because the brand is so strong.

tom66:

--- Quote from: nctnico on January 09, 2021, 11:23:24 am ---Margin isn't everything. In the end the R&D needs to be paid for as well. It is not a secret that Tesla receives a huge amount of money for their CO2 emission rights (which in itself is insane because it means that for each EV out there, there is also an ICE vehicle creating the CO2 output on top of the CO2 output most EVs cause). The big question is whether Tesla can continue their R&D efforts at a sufficient level in order to stay ahead of the competition without the revenue stream from the CO2 emission rights. Either way I don't think Tesla will ever dissapear because the brand is so strong.

--- End quote ---

Of course R&D is an issue but no company burns R&D money without expecting a return (well, maybe with exception of uBeam etc...)

Also Tesla only make about 10% gross margin from auto credits,  so while it's non-zero,  they're still profitable without them.

VW spent over $91 billion on MEB, a single car platform that currently only underties ID.3, yet people seem to balk at Tesla spending ~$4 bn/year?

The biggest problem with TSLA I have right now is their $700 bn valuation seems sky high, it's got to crash down to something more reasonable like $100 bn... right?  I just can't see that being sustainable.

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