Elizabeth Holmes convicted of fraud

[james_s]

When she found out she was not "the company" anymore and no longer important than anyone else there she showed her "emotions" by having a fit. I wonder what will happen in prison if she goes to prison. Will she influence and control the inmates or (if they knew any better) beat these "emotions" out of her to make them show more often.

Prisons have their own culture, hierarchy and pecking order. I've read that around 70% of the prison population at least in the US has ASPD, that's a large majority that has sociopathic traits. Hard to say where she'd fall into line with a large population of other people sharing many of her characteristics.

[Stray Electron]

Another acquaintance, adopted into a family with university professors for parents, yet is a career criminal. Theft, weapons offenses, raped several women and reached his pinnacle robbing a bank. He tried to get me to join him "all that money's in the vault just sitting there, it belongs to nobody"... He got 4 years jail time, and no change in behaviour.

   I grew up with two people that were adopted by some of the nicest people that you'd ever want to meet yet both of them were incessant liars and thieves with no remorse or any consideration for anyone but themselves.  But other people that I knew and that were adopted never had these kinds of issues.  Some people just seem to be born lacking any kind of morals or scruples.

[MikeK]

Some people just seem to be born lacking any kind of morals or scruples.

It's a physical problem...with the amygdala.  Some people are indeed born with problems with it.

[tom66]

The rate of psychopathy in the general population is around 0.5 - 1%.  If you think that you probably know at least 100 people reasonably closely (friends, work colleagues, family) then it's pretty easy to imagine you deal with a light-weight psychopath several times in a month ... though some are good at hiding it. And often it's not an 'evil' trait, 1% of people are not genocidal maniacs for instance.  It just means they lack empathy for others; they can still see that appearing empathetic is beneficial for their social status, but it also means they have no care about manipulating others to get their way.  Also, many never get diagnosed.  It's far more common in men than women, and it may go some way to explain why the male prison population is so much larger.

[Nominal Animal]

What really grinds my gears is that some people are still blaming people for falling to the wiles of sociopaths and psychopaths, and believing that you can "educate" people to not fall for them.

You think you won't fall victim, because you know you know better.  Sure, until you do fall.

When that happens, there are two paths you can take: you can blame yourself, or you can blame others.  Neither is constructive.  What is constructive, is realizing that sociopaths and psychopaths have manipulation skills that you cannot educate against.  It just doesn't work.  The level of immunity to such social games depends much more on your personality traits than on your intelligence or knowledge.  Just like you cannot teach an average person to be a genius in math, you cannot teach an average person to be immune from social manipulation by a sociopath or psychopath.

Blaming the victims does not help.

[nctnico]

Blaming the victims does not help.

True. But in several cases better regulations and stronger enforcement would help prevent damages. Here in the NL we have a sociopath that wanted to play bank director. Despite not being up to standard at all, he managed to get a banking license and did a lot of damage. Ending in bankcrupty and many ruined lives. The POS director of the Dutch national bank who should have blocked the license application, had to go because of it and now works for the Bank of China because he couldn't get a job anywhere else.

[tom66]

Not sure I agree you cannot educate against psychopaths. 

Most are not more intelligent than the average person (higher intelligence and psychopathy are in fact slightly negatively correlated traits), and therefore if you know the signs to look out for you can protect yourself against these people.

You may not be able to convince everyone around you, but once you spot the signs you can figure out a reasonable path to avoid them.

The worst case is if they are your boss or hold some other power over you; that can be dangerous.

In the case of Holmes, the signs of deception were there from the start:  the false male voice, the fact she had others knowingly lie to investors for her gain, whistleblowers in the company ... It was all there for investors willing to actually dig deep.  Unfortunately, many investors fell for the pitch, perhaps under the concept of the "bigger fool" theory.

[John B]

What really grinds my gears is that some people are still blaming people for falling to the wiles of sociopaths and psychopaths, and believing that you can "educate" people to not fall for them.

You think you won't fall victim, because you know you know better.  Sure, until you do fall.

When that happens, there are two paths you can take: you can blame yourself, or you can blame others.  Neither is constructive.  What is constructive, is realizing that sociopaths and psychopaths have manipulation skills that you cannot educate against.  It just doesn't work.  The level of immunity to such social games depends much more on your personality traits than on your intelligence or knowledge.  Just like you cannot teach an average person to be a genius in math, you cannot teach an average person to be immune from social manipulation by a sociopath or psychopath.

Blaming the victims does not help.

Yeah. I have first hand experience in dealing with these types. They will exploit normal social codes and tendencies, and as such it's very difficult to fully protect yourself against such people without destroying your own ability to function as a social creature. They exploit trust, good will, generosity, the benefit of the doubt, and more.

If you take these aspects out of all your social interactions for your own protection, not only will you be likely miserable and paranoid, but you'll probably develop some level of sociopathy yourself.

I think you can educate yourself all day long with these stories in some attempt to never be burned by these types of people, but actually dealing with the complicated web of factors first hand will probably result in you failing that and getting burned anyways.

[Stray Electron]

What really grinds my gears is that some people are still blaming people for falling to the wiles of sociopaths and psychopaths, and believing that you can "educate" people to not fall for them.

You think you won't fall victim, because you know you know better.  Sure, until you do fall.

When that happens, there are two paths you can take: you can blame yourself, or you can blame others.  Neither is constructive.  What is constructive, is realizing that sociopaths and psychopaths have manipulation skills that you cannot educate against.  It just doesn't work.  The level of immunity to such social games depends much more on your personality traits than on your intelligence or knowledge.  Just like you cannot teach an average person to be a genius in math, you cannot teach an average person to be immune from social manipulation by a sociopath or psychopath.

Blaming the victims does not help.

Yeah. I have first hand experience in dealing with these types. They will exploit normal social codes and tendencies, and as such it's very difficult to fully protect yourself against such people without destroying your own ability to function as a social creature. They exploit trust, good will, generosity, the benefit of the doubt, and more.

If you take these aspects out of all your social interactions for your own protection, not only will you be likely miserable and paranoid,

   I strongly disagree.  I know quite a few people that are "that type" and I simply cut them out of my life completely, including a couple of family members, and I'm far from miserable or paranoid. In fact I'm far happier now than in the past.  It took years to fully realize how destructive some of these people were but once I realized it, I cut them out of my life and now things are much more peaceful and without all of the constant DRAMA. 

  People don't have to be as big of a liar as Elizabeth Holmes and her ilk in order to slowly but inevitably wreck your life. The sooner that people wake up to that fact and take a look at the people around them and decide which ones to keep in trier lives and which ones they need to dump, the better off they'll be.

[Stray Electron]

I think you can educate yourself all day long with these stories in some attempt to never be burned by these types of people, but actually dealing with the complicated web of factors first hand will probably result in you failing that and getting burned anyways.

  There's an old saying that says "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me!"

   Face it; you're going to get taken every now and then but the important things is that you LEARN from your mistakes and don't get taken a second time.   And if you're really smart, you learn from other people's mistakes and you don't make the same mistake in the first place.

[Nominal Animal]

Not sure I agree you cannot educate against psychopaths.

You can teach people to detect the early signs and to try and avoid interacting with them, sure.
But you cannot teach people how to not be manipulated.  Avoid, yes; not be manipulated, no.

In business, there is a much higher density of sociopaths and psychopaths than in other fields, because there the traits can be useful.
The idea of an investor avoiding companies where a top executive exhibits such traits is ridiculous; like refusing to interact with anyone whose last name starts with an H.

It is likely possible to teach some people the perceptive skills and introspection to detect and counteract social manipulation, but it is not something every human, or even most of humans, are capable of.  Just consider how long it takes to train a criminal investigator to be capable of catching killers, and how many simply cannot do such work for long.

Sure, we can argue that for anyone to be allowed to manage millions of dollars of other peoples money, they should be taught such skills.
That's a completely different discussion, though.  Blaming anyone for not having such skills is like blaming people for believing what they read in the newspapers or hear from the newscasts.  (Media education should be part of comprehensive schools in my opinion, but it isn't, so you cannot really blame people for believing the media they consume.  Things have changed a lot in the last century, media-wise, and our upbringing hasn't caught up yet.)

[PlainName]

Media education should be part of comprehensive schools in my opinion, but it isn't, so you cannot really blame people for believing the media they consume.

How would media education - whatever that is - help people believe only the right stuff? Or know when to disbelieve stuff?

[AVGresponding]

Media education should be part of comprehensive schools in my opinion, but it isn't, so you cannot really blame people for believing the media they consume.

How would media education - whatever that is - help people believe only the right stuff? Or know when to disbelieve stuff?

It would help if people were taught critical thinking skills at an earlier point, say pre-teen, rather than waiting until higher education, as seems to mostly be the case these days.

[Nominal Animal]

Media education should be part of comprehensive schools in my opinion, but it isn't, so you cannot really blame people for believing the media they consume.

How would media education - whatever that is - help people believe only the right stuff? Or know when to disbelieve stuff?

At the core, it is about critical analysis of media messaging.  The key sentence from the media literacy Wikipedia page:

Critical analyses can include identifying author, purpose and point of view, examining construction techniques and genres, examining patterns of media representation, and detecting propaganda, censorship, and bias in news and public affairs programming (and the reasons for these). Media literacy education may explore how structural features—such as media ownership, or its funding model—affect the information presented.

If you compare this to dealing with sociopathic or psychopathic fraudsters, it is about detection and avoidance, before you get swayed by them.

But just like with sociopaths and psychopaths, even knowing the media is biased does not protect you from its social influence.  For example, psychological studies have proven that by forcing people to utter specific sentences enough times over time, their attitude toward things involved in that speech can be altered, regardless of whether they know it is happening.

We humans are social animals, and that sort of manipulation simply bypasses most of our conscious minds, and affects our behaviour and thoughts at a more primitive level.

[Psi]

It would help if people were taught critical thinking skills at an earlier point, say pre-teen, rather than waiting until higher education, as seems to mostly be the case these days.

You can say that again!

Critical thinking, higher reasoning skills and problem solving need to be a major subject at school.
They are as important as maths and science.
It's extremely important that, when faced with a problem, kids learn how to analyze the problem from all angles, figure out the root cause and come up with a solution, or an approach to located additional information if no good solution presents itself.

[Nominal Animal]

It's extremely important that, when faced with a problem, kids learn how to analyze the problem from all angles, figure out the root cause and come up with a solution, or an approach to locate additional information if no good solution presents itself.

The psychological impact of teaching kids that should not be underestimated either: that no problem is insurmountable and that they can find solutions to every single problem they will ever come across (it only being a question of time, effort, cost, etc. whether any of those solutions is worthwhile, or whether one needs to go deeper one step further in whatever caused this to be a problem that would need to be solved; and that ones own personal interests affect a lot which kinds of problems one will most effectively find solutions to).

You can see this easily in the kids' increased self-confidence, and it will also affect the kids' school grades in a definitely positive manner.  I've seen this happening in real life.

Of course, politics will interfere with this, because a huge segment of Western comprehensive school teachers believe they should teach kids to be interchangeable pro-equity/equality-of-outcome political units, with individualism and meritocracy being swear words and definitely punishable ideas.
Just look at how Finnish PISA scores are plummeting, as earlier individualistic/self-confidence-building/meritocratic lesson plans have been replaced with the more politically correct group-oriented ones in the last decade or two.

[PlainName]

that no problem is surmountable

did you mean 'insurmountable'?

[Nominal Animal]

that no problem is surmountable

did you mean 'insurmountable'?

Most definitely I did, thanks.  Me fail English often...

[PlainName]

Phew! Next generation of engineers saved

[james_s]

I'm so bad off financially that I wouldn't even be able to eat if I was to move out, let alone take a hot shower or own a car.

What's stopping you from changing that situation? Get a job, move away, get some roommates and rent a place in a cheap area, then focus on learning a skill. If you're young and physically able much of the world is in dire need of tradesmen, shouldn't be too hard to get an apprenticeship. If you're stuck where you are, it's only in your own mind, people leave broken situations all the time with little more than the shirt on their back. The hardest part is convincing yourself that you don't actually need to be dependent on someone.

[Stray Electron]

Yeah. I have first hand experience in dealing with these types. They will exploit normal social codes and tendencies, and as such it's very difficult to fully protect yourself against such people without destroying your own ability to function as a social creature. They exploit trust, good will, generosity, the benefit of the doubt, and more.

If you take these aspects out of all your social interactions for your own protection, not only will you be likely miserable and paranoid, but you'll probably develop some level of sociopathy yourself.

I think you can educate yourself all day long with these stories in some attempt to never be burned by these types of people, but actually dealing with the complicated web of factors first hand will probably result in you failing that and getting burned anyways.

I have had to deal with that nearly my entire life. Yes it certainly does make you paranoid and does make you miserable. Unfortunately I cannot simply leave because I'm bad off financially. These same people in my life want me to remain financially dependent upon them. Hopefully by retaining the skills that I have I can pull myself up off the ground and obtain a regular income. Antipsychotics help.

I'm so bad off financially that I wouldn't even be able to eat if I was to move out, let alone take a hot shower or own a car.

Don't forget also that these same type of people can and will do everything in their power to destroy your life so that you remain dependent upon them. Thats what I went through as a kid/teen and adult. My father was like that and every day it was a struggle just leaving my bedroom yet he would put me down to control me then say sorry in the afternoon, then repeat the process the day after.

Then he would tell me why I don't go outside more often. I'm like afraid for my life from him and he's asking me why I don't go outside more, oh wait, you told me that the outside world is full of bad people and that you want me to obey the words of a book before I'm allowed to. But I'm betting that you wouldn't let me live a normal life anyway even if I did start to go outside and have a life.

Can you imagine the sheer insanity of being forced to turn away from education and obtaining a job, being told by your parents that, then having to pick the pieces of your life up when you are 38 without any education credentials, no job experience.

Its just pure horror going through it. Thankfully my mum isn't as bad but she has friends who think its atrocious that I'm still living at home but not interested in their teachings. Then they get angry if I don't attend on a regular basis. If I tell them that I wouldn't be able to afford to eat if I was living on my own they don't care! They tell me that "people in 3rd world countries are doing far worse than you" I think to myself at that point... "well do you want to be a friend to me?"
And if I mention any of this to them, they label me crazy. Which works perfect because what I've been through would send just about anybody crazy.

Just pure horror. I don't want to offend anybody but sometimes you've got to just to survive.
[/quote]


   Yeah, I think many of us have had to deal with our own demons.  I lived with my father after my parents divorced and he and I fought constantly and I mean real honest to God fist-fights until I finally left home when I was seventeen. I joined the US military five days after I graduated from high school so that I could get away from home and away from the small dead end town that I was in, and to learn a skill and to get a real paying job, and as a way to pay for a future college education.  It was probably the smartest move that I ever made.  If you're still young enough to join then I highly recommend it as a way to get out of your situation and to move on with your life.

[MrMobodies]

https://www.tmz.com/2023/01/13/theranos-founder-elizabeth-holmes-mental-health-program-prison-the-dropout/

ELIZABETH HOLMES MUST ENTER MENTAL HEALTH PROGRAM After Prison Sentence
1/13/2023 12:30 AM PT

Elizabeth Holmes, founder of the failed blood-testing start-up Theranos, * could be looking at a rigorous schedule even after she gets out of prison ... one that involves her completing a mental health program.

According to legal docs, obtained by TMZ, the specifics of the program will go down as directed by her probation officer, but Holmes will foot all -- or at least part -- of the bill.

The docs say Holmes must also cooperate in the collection of DNA, and must be willing to submit herself, her home, office, vehicle and all her property to a search if her probation officer has any reasonable suspicions she's violating the terms of her supervised release.

As we reported, Holmes was sentenced in November to more than 11 years behind bars and 3 years of supervised release. She has to report to the prison at the end of April.

You'll recall, she was convicted on 4 of the 11 charges she was facing in her fraud trial -- one count of conspiracy to commit wire fraud and 3 counts of wire fraud.

She was charged after her start-up biotech company Theranos collapsed amid allegations she deceived investors, patients and advertisers ... all in search of money and fame.

*I wonder how rigorous.

Joke: Wouldn't it be better she does the mental health program at the start of the prison sentence before she is allowed to meet other inmates just in case to prevent her influencing and controlling them. I know james_s said about it was hierarchy there with inmates with similar traits but I think she maybe very well be capable or if they are wise they may just avoid her.

[Black Phoenix]

https://www.eastbaytimes.com/2023/01/20/feds-say-elizabeth-holmes-attempted-to-flee-the-u-s-with-one-way-ticket-after-conviction/

Theranos founder Elizabeth Holmes tried to flee the U.S. after a jury convicted her of felony fraud in early 2022, federal prosecutors alleged in a new court filing.

“Holmes booked an international flight to Mexico departing on January 26, 2022, without a scheduled return trip,” the document from prosecutors, filed Thursday, said. It was only after government prosecutors contacted Holmes’ legal team about the “unauthorized flight” that the trip was cancelled.

In a letter from Holmes attorney Lance Wade to prosecutors emailed Jan. 23, 2022 and submitted by prosecutors as an exhibit in their filing, Wade said Holmes’ flight reservation for Mexico was made before the jury’s verdict. “The hope was that the verdict would be different and Ms. Holmes would be able to make this trip to attend the wedding of close friends in Mexico,” the letter said. “Given the verdict, she does not plan to take the trip — and therefore did not provide notice, seek permission, or request access to her passport (which the government has) for the trip. But she also had not yet cancelled the trip, amidst everything that has been going on. We will have her do so promptly.”

[PlainName]

Would they not have been better to just say nothing and then nick her at the airport? By telling her (via her lawyers) that TPTB are hip to the trip, if she were intending to skip she'd make sure the next attempt was much more below the radar.

[MadScientist]

Clearly booking a flight out of the US isn’t a good move and makes her look like a flight risk. Of course delusional people trend to continue being delusional