Author Topic: Elon Musk can stick his submarine where it hurts  (Read 16298 times)

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Offline chris_leyson

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Re: Elon Musk can stick his submarine where it hurts
« Reply #100 on: July 16, 2018, 02:06:56 am »
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For many caves that sub would work just fine
  Thanks mtdoc at least there is another speleologist on the forum and you have some idea of what is involved, and you've done it under water, big respect  :-+. All my caving experience is from South Wales and in dry caves, it's twisty and tight and I've pulled the skin of my hips sqeezing through a hole I shouldn't have. Lava tubes and underground rivers are two completely different things geologically, I'm just judging it from my own experience, either underground rivers or the remains of accient mines. It's all down to geology and I just explored a tiny part of the UK. A proper geological survey of the Tham Luang cave system would be in order, just like any other large sytem, but it's down to speleologists doing it part time, nobody else gives a damn.
 
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Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Elon Musk can stick his submarine where it hurts
« Reply #101 on: July 16, 2018, 02:17:34 am »
Well it has been tested.  And I agree with atarodov, testing in real world conditions would be the next step.

The Thai Navy Seal death is a red herring. He ran out of oxygen. It's certain that in testing this that won't happen. Cave diving is done every day by experienced and inexperienced divers. Yes, it is dangerous. I've done it once but it's not for me.

I wouldn't be surprised if after all the publicity this rescue has had that this cave becomes a tourist attraction and during flooding the cave divers are waiting in line to try it out.
I've been thinking to myself exactly that. The location doesn't seem to be near the regular tourist traps, but it seems inevitable the story will attract people. Apparently the cave already was a tourist attraction and this certainly won't hurt visitor numbers. Maybe the incident will even help popularise that part of the country.
 

Offline mtdoc

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Re: Elon Musk can stick his submarine where it hurts
« Reply #102 on: July 16, 2018, 02:47:15 am »
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For many caves that sub would work just fine
  Thanks mtdoc at least there is another speleologist on the forum and you have some idea of what is involved, and you've done it under water, big respect  :-+.

Thanks but to be honest, spelunking is not my cup of tea. Sure, I’ve done it - but usually by necessity. I have done a lot of rock climbing and mountaineering as well as some canyoneering and sometimes that has  required some spelunking. Only once did I intentionally go on a caving trip. My one experience cave diving was 35 years ago on a vacation to Hawaii. I did a boat dive trip and the guide just said “follow me”. We enterered a lava tube and it got narrower and narrower the farher we went. By the time I realized what I had gotten myself into it was too late to turn back!  I can get a touch of claustrophobia at times and the combination of squeezing through a tight space while, breathing through a regulator underwater was anxiety provoking to say the least.  Thankfully I did not panic.   :phew:
 

Offline SparkyFX

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Re: Elon Musk can stick his submarine where it hurts
« Reply #103 on: July 16, 2018, 03:12:37 am »
In fact I would even give the coach credit for the groups survival in the cave, for all that going into that cave at this time of year.... Not the best decision.
As far as i have read it, the group was celebrating a birthday and brought some food with them, which was the reason for being there and helped with survival. If the way back is then cut off by water and/or orientation is lost (rising water level means the ground looks completely different, orientation marks vanish) or light goes out... anyone can get trapped.

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Sedatives? Yea, likely, seems like given the presence of a medic in the cave it would reduce the risks all round, but who really cares at this point, the important thing is that it worked.
Didn´t understand this myself at first, but being in a cold, dark, wet cave without food for several days straight without hope of being rescued does do nothing good for a persons mind. The additional stress on the way out might put them over the edge. There is this popular rescue swimmer anecdote of the rescuee pulling the rescuer down because of panic. Makes more sense considering this. Of course they could have made it without.

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Meanwhile, while all media eyes were on 12 kids and a coach, a tourist boat went down off Thailand will the loss of 50 or so people, and Japan had circa 150 people killed by mudslides and flooding. Amazing how the media loves disasters that play out in slow motion (See also Fukushima and those Peruvian miners).
Because those are cases where the outcome can be changed instead of shrugging shoulders after the fact. It also creates some public pressure to make buerocrats move faster than just the local news, up to the point where it makes things worse.

« Last Edit: July 16, 2018, 03:27:09 am by SparkyFX »
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Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Elon Musk can stick his submarine where it hurts
« Reply #104 on: July 16, 2018, 04:49:52 am »
Well, the quote is true, but it does not imply that they need to do anything after the rescue is complete.

Apart from somewhat vain attempt to prove himself right, it is not a bad idea to test it in the actual cave, to have the thing tested in some sort of real-life conditions.
It may not be as vain as one might think. There are a lot of investors looking at every single one of Musk's farts, attaching all sorts of significance to them. Letting people walk all over the sub could hurt.
 

Offline SparkyFX

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Re: Elon Musk can stick his submarine where it hurts
« Reply #105 on: July 16, 2018, 03:48:27 pm »
Meanwhile, while all media eyes were on 12 kids and a coach, a tourist boat went down off Thailand will the loss of 50 or so people, and Japan had circa 150 people killed by mudslides and flooding. Amazing how the media loves disasters that play out in slow motion (See also Fukushima and those Peruvian miners).
Sorry for getting into a political topic, the accidents you mentioned are a tragedy of its own, but at the same time there are hundreds of people (including kids that might not have taken a decision themselves) drowning in the Mediterranean Sea because boats are unfit for the sea and/or overloaded, so they don´t make it and sink - on a regular occurence. The causes for trying to take the passage are important too, but not that relevant after the boat sank. What buerocracy in its worst form does can be seen in the "Lifeline" case.

It is different because those are not the outspoken accident this thread is about, but still life is in danger, avoidable and possible to mitigate. It is the bigger humanitarian crisis, too big for single individuals to lift and probably "too distant" to get people involved too much. Everyone needs to function to some degree albeit having watched the news.

Just saying, there are some parallels which some people do not get in order. A good media coverage rubs it right back into their face.
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Offline james_s

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Re: Elon Musk can stick his submarine where it hurts
« Reply #106 on: July 16, 2018, 03:56:34 pm »
We enterered a lava tube and it got narrower and narrower the farher we went. By the time I realized what I had gotten myself into it was too late to turn back!  I can get a touch of claustrophobia at times and the combination of squeezing through a tight space while, breathing through a regulator underwater was anxiety provoking to say the least.  Thankfully I did not panic.   :phew:

That makes my skin crawl just thinking about it. I'm generally not claustrophobic at all and in fact tend to like cozy enclosed spaces, but being underwater changes all that.
 

Offline dmills

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Re: Elon Musk can stick his submarine where it hurts
« Reply #107 on: July 16, 2018, 05:18:32 pm »
Yep the med is a massive human tragedy (In fact I would say the war driving much of the migration was the real tragedy).

Maritime law (SOLAS) says that you are REQUIRED to render aid at sea and are REQUIRED to land the people you rescue at the first suitable port at which you make landfall, seems simple enough on that level, and probably works most of the time without major political pain when it is something like pulling a crew off a sinking fishing boat.

Trouble is if you deliberately go out to do this thing when it is stupidly overloaded boats full of undocumented migrants (And that should be applauded, saving lives, generally a good thing!), then you get into the whole refugees/economic migrants political shitstorm (The difference between the two groups being something political types should really learn about before commenting on such matters). 

Migration (in the general sense of 'not like us') is an easy political target for point scoring with enough voters to make it a political imperative, but only because you are talking about 'Them' not some individual story, it becomes a much harder sell for most people (even the ones in the voting block that makes this a political issue) once you start looking at individual cases.

Anyway, waaay off topic.

Regards, Dan.
 

Offline Dubbie

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Re: Elon Musk can stick his submarine where it hurts
« Reply #108 on: July 17, 2018, 11:40:24 pm »
This thread probably deserves to die, but I just read a post which I think is the only fair treatment of the whole debacle I have seen online.

https://www.quora.com/Whats-the-full-story-behind-Elon-Musks-involvement-with-the-Thai-cave-rescue-effort
 
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Offline MT

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Re: Elon Musk can stick his submarine where it hurts
« Reply #109 on: July 18, 2018, 12:34:51 am »
Unsworth can actually sue Musk for calling him pedo! Libel and slander! :popcorn:
 

Online wraper

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Re: Elon Musk can stick his submarine where it hurts
« Reply #110 on: July 18, 2018, 12:45:27 am »
Unsworth can actually sue Musk for calling him pedo! Libel and slander! :popcorn:
Actually I don't think it would fly in court. Musk did not explicitly say that Unsworth is pedo guy. In one of his tweets he just said "sorry pedo guy", whoever it was.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Elon Musk can stick his submarine where it hurts
« Reply #111 on: July 18, 2018, 12:46:45 am »
I will agree the pedo comment was over the line and uncalled-for, but I can understand his frustration. I think we have all said something rude out of anger at one time or another, it's unfortunate that in the modern world any one of these outbursts can end up permanently recorded and analyzed under a microscope for years to come.
 
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Offline Brumby

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Re: Elon Musk can stick his submarine where it hurts
« Reply #112 on: July 18, 2018, 05:07:20 am »
While I find Elon Musk's words regrettable, I also feel the criticism that the sub idea would never have worked rather inappropriate and totally uncalled for.

Certainly there were issues to be addressed as you have with any development, but the fact is, that the submarine idea never had the chance to be exercised because an alternate solution was successful.

Failure to utilise Musk's sub is not a failure in the concept, it is simply an implementation opportunity that was never realised.  To criticise it out of hand was simply opportunistic IMO and I don't endorse such attitudes.

Would the sub have worked?  Maybe, maybe not.  We will never know, but I would like to think that development would continue to produce something that might prove useful in the future.
 
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Offline Raj

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Re: Elon Musk can stick his submarine where it hurts
« Reply #113 on: July 18, 2018, 08:31:30 am »
Elon the showman.Maybe he's doing all the so called 'awsome' stuff he does, for publicity
 
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Offline gore

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Re: Elon Musk can stick his submarine where it hurts
« Reply #114 on: July 18, 2018, 12:58:01 pm »
Elon the showman.Maybe he's doing all the so called 'awsome' stuff he does, for publicity

You mean rockets, electric cars, solar and other things that push humanity forward? Whatever his motivation is, I hope he keeps on doing it!
 

Offline In Vacuo Veritas

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Re: Elon Musk can stick his submarine where it hurts
« Reply #115 on: July 18, 2018, 01:09:39 pm »
Elon the showman.Maybe he's doing all the so called 'awsome' stuff he does, for publicity

You mean rockets, electric cars, solar and other things that push humanity forward? Whatever his motivation is, I hope he keeps on doing it!

You want to push humanity forward? There is a significant portion of humanity that doesn't have access to drinking water or have sewage systems.

The fact that you have some shiny toys is not an indicator of the entire human race's progress.

Talk about narcissism. Yeesh. Look beyond your navel some day.
 

Offline GeorgeOfTheJungle

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Re: Elon Musk can stick his submarine where it hurts
« Reply #116 on: July 18, 2018, 01:19:22 pm »
You mean rockets, electric cars, solar and other things that push humanity forward? Whatever his motivation is, I hope he keeps on doing it!
Putting together a VFD a battery and a motor, is to push humanity forward? Ohh, yes, and an iPad too.
The further a society drifts from truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.
 
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Offline gore

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Re: Elon Musk can stick his submarine where it hurts
« Reply #117 on: July 18, 2018, 01:31:57 pm »
You mean rockets, electric cars, solar and other things that push humanity forward? Whatever his motivation is, I hope he keeps on doing it!
Putting together a VFD a battery and a motor, is to push humanity forward? Ohh, yes, and an iPad too.

That's an ignorant statement. Transitioning from fossil to solar is immensely important for sustainability alone. Not to mention a number of other issues, such as pollution. And you skipped past the other things. I suppose the importance is undeniable.
 

Offline In Vacuo Veritas

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Re: Elon Musk can stick his submarine where it hurts
« Reply #118 on: July 18, 2018, 01:36:43 pm »
You mean rockets, electric cars, solar and other things that push humanity forward? Whatever his motivation is, I hope he keeps on doing it!
Putting together a VFD a battery and a motor, is to push humanity forward? Ohh, yes, and an iPad too.

That's an ignorant statement. Transitioning from fossil to solar is immensely important for sustainability alone. Not to mention a number of other issues, such as pollution. And you skipped past the other things. I suppose the importance is undeniable.

Yes, I suppose the feedstocks for chemical fertilizers and plastics will come from good intentions and Star Trek boxed sets.

Yeesh, grow up, sunshine.

Oh, you're 28? LOL, forgivable. I've got underwear older than you.
 

Offline Raj

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Re: Elon Musk can stick his submarine where it hurts
« Reply #119 on: July 18, 2018, 01:44:42 pm »
Solar pannel division wasn't even his idea and investment.
It was his brother's.
 

Online wraper

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Re: Elon Musk can stick his submarine where it hurts
« Reply #120 on: July 18, 2018, 01:52:33 pm »
Elon the showman.Maybe he's doing all the so called 'awsome' stuff he does, for publicity

You mean rockets, electric cars, solar and other things that push humanity forward? Whatever his motivation is, I hope he keeps on doing it!

You want to push humanity forward? There is a significant portion of humanity that doesn't have access to drinking water or have sewage systems.

The fact that you have some shiny toys is not an indicator of the entire human race's progress.

Talk about narcissism. Yeesh. Look beyond your navel some day.
You are still not in Africa helping poor people? You dare to use internet and smartphone while people are starving? What a douche!
 

Offline In Vacuo Veritas

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Re: Elon Musk can stick his submarine where it hurts
« Reply #121 on: July 18, 2018, 01:56:05 pm »
Elon the showman.Maybe he's doing all the so called 'awsome' stuff he does, for publicity

You mean rockets, electric cars, solar and other things that push humanity forward? Whatever his motivation is, I hope he keeps on doing it!

You want to push humanity forward? There is a significant portion of humanity that doesn't have access to drinking water or have sewage systems.

The fact that you have some shiny toys is not an indicator of the entire human race's progress.

Talk about narcissism. Yeesh. Look beyond your navel some day.
You are still not in Africa helping poor people? You dare to use internet and smartphone while people are starving? What a douche!

I'm not the one talking for humanity or planning out the Space Future Of The Species (tm) with a Sharpie on a wall-mounted Gantt chart.
 

Online wraper

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Re: Elon Musk can stick his submarine where it hurts
« Reply #122 on: July 18, 2018, 01:59:15 pm »
Solar pannel division wasn't even his idea and investment.
It was his brother's.
Actually Elon gave an idea and money. Was shareholder and chairman.
 

Online wraper

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Re: Elon Musk can stick his submarine where it hurts
« Reply #123 on: July 18, 2018, 02:05:10 pm »
I'm not the one talking for humanity or planning out the Space Future Of The Species (tm) with a Sharpie on a wall-mounted Gantt chart.
Right, you are sitting on the chair and do nothing other than criticizing people who actually move humanity forward. Isn't it a bit hypocritical? If Elon did not have this businesses, he would not have big money in the first place.
 

Offline gore

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Re: Elon Musk can stick his submarine where it hurts
« Reply #124 on: July 18, 2018, 02:09:02 pm »
You mean rockets, electric cars, solar and other things that push humanity forward? Whatever his motivation is, I hope he keeps on doing it!
Putting together a VFD a battery and a motor, is to push humanity forward? Ohh, yes, and an iPad too.

That's an ignorant statement. Transitioning from fossil to solar is immensely important for sustainability alone. Not to mention a number of other issues, such as pollution. And you skipped past the other things. I suppose the importance is undeniable.

Yes, I suppose the feedstocks for chemical fertilizers and plastics will come from good intentions and Star Trek boxed sets.

Yeesh, grow up, sunshine.

Oh, you're 28? LOL, forgivable. I've got underwear older than you.

I'm not the one talking for humanity or planning out the Space Future Of The Species (tm) with a Sharpie on a wall-mounted Gantt chart.

You can't altogether avoid pollution of some sort. The question is of reduction. If you have a proof that solar pollutes more than fossil fuels - please share the data. You arent't proposing anything reasonable, neither are you talking for humanity. Beyond the petty insults, what exactly do you do?
 


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