Author Topic: Elon Musk can stick his submarine where it hurts  (Read 13235 times)

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Offline ebastler

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Re: Elon Musk can stick his submarine where it hurts
« Reply #175 on: September 08, 2018, 06:29:27 pm »
It’s not a gateway drug but it links you to people who are a gateway to other drugs.

But isn't that exactly what legalizing cannabis is meant to change?
 
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Offline coppercone2

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Re: Elon Musk can stick his submarine where it hurts
« Reply #176 on: September 08, 2018, 06:34:38 pm »
the 7% loss to investors is basically a 'prissy bitch' culling in my opinion. I can see people like that fucking up all sorts of things and dampening the shit out of a board of investors. You might be able to make more money without such elements present in the long run. Having those sorts of investors in your stock means it will probably have some kind of annoying fluctuation that complicates your own stock analysis because they are running for cover every time the wind blows.

Taking money from any kind of radical element is generally best avoided. It's not like he was blasting giant crack rocks and yelling encouraging words about genocide on camera. The other man was drinking hard alcohol.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2018, 06:43:32 pm by coppercone2 »
 

Offline chris_leyson

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Re: Elon Musk can stick his submarine where it hurts
« Reply #177 on: September 08, 2018, 06:56:48 pm »
A lot of people have to use cannabis or rather CBD or Cannabidiol for cronic pain releif, multiple sclerosis for example. CBD is also an effective treatment for certain types of childhood epilepsy. Thant's just one of the 113 canabinoids found in the cannabis plant. I would be more worried about the effects of spice, it's probably killing more people than heroin ever did and makes a bit of weed look quite tame by comparison.
 

Offline coppercone2

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Re: Elon Musk can stick his submarine where it hurts
« Reply #178 on: September 08, 2018, 06:59:52 pm »
if you look into it spice is actually cannabinoids theoretically, problem is its dosed wrong (some are more potent) and mixed with stronger opiods sometimes (cheap stuff).

The various compounds inside of spice are invented as tracer/substitute molecules for doing biological research on cannabis. Like metabolic intermediates and substitutes that effect the various biological processes in the same way for determining function of biological systems. I do believe you get some nasty carcinogens occasionally doing that method of study with compounds designed with the goal of receptor interaction only, since you don't care what happens outside of your test jig.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2018, 07:06:45 pm by coppercone2 »
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: Elon Musk can stick his submarine where it hurts
« Reply #179 on: September 08, 2018, 07:09:01 pm »
It seems Elon has more problems. A survey from the UK shows that Tesla makes the worst cars of all brands:
https://www.thesun.co.uk/motors/7190167/elon-musk-tesla-least-reliable-cars/

It's also What Car, a HCM publication. They have almost complete ownership of motorsport and print media in the UK. Buy one of their magazines and look who the high value ad sponsors are. Literally do not trust anything on paper printed by the UK media. It's total shite. All of it. To note, the Sun, aggregating here has a target market of racist dumbasses who want to see tits and shame with some words between them, but not too many words because "reading is for fags".

Not defending Musk or Tesla here, but simply avoid the above sources to start with.
Better tell that to the Dutch newspapers as well then because that is where I got the story from and I simply Googled for an English version. I did wonder why every Brittisch news paper website has half naked ladies on it so thanks for explaining that  :-+
« Last Edit: September 08, 2018, 07:12:42 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline bd139

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Re: Elon Musk can stick his submarine where it hurts
« Reply #180 on: September 08, 2018, 07:15:16 pm »
It’s not a gateway drug but it links you to people who are a gateway to other drugs.

But isn't that exactly what legalizing cannabis is meant to change?

No what it has done is turned your local dealer into a salaried salesperson on a supply chain which will tip at some point to a race to the bottom when dispensaries start undercutting each other. It’s all happy Wild West stuff at the moment. Give it a few years and you’ll see the nasty side of the business making an appearance again. Like it has in amsterdam where the entire thing is propped up by crime syndicates who cut it with small amounts of PCP. Oh no wait that’s happening already; enjoy your accelerated psychosis.

Incidentally my ex I spent three years with was a dealer. I know the industry inside out. Have some skeletons in my closet for sure.

A lot of people have to use cannabis or rather CBD or Cannabidiol for cronic pain releif, multiple sclerosis for example. CBD is also an effective treatment for certain types of childhood epilepsy. Thant's just one of the 113 canabinoids found in the cannabis plant. I would be more worried about the effects of spice, it's probably killing more people than heroin ever did and makes a bit of weed look quite tame by comparison.
This is exactly the sort of escalation we see.

It’s why we have strong medical regulation here in Europe.

It seems Elon has more problems. A survey from the UK shows that Tesla makes the worst cars of all brands:
https://www.thesun.co.uk/motors/7190167/elon-musk-tesla-least-reliable-cars/

It's also What Car, a HCM publication. They have almost complete ownership of motorsport and print media in the UK. Buy one of their magazines and look who the high value ad sponsors are. Literally do not trust anything on paper printed by the UK media. It's total shite. All of it. To note, the Sun, aggregating here has a target market of racist dumbasses who want to see tits and shame with some words between them, but not too many words because "reading is for fags".

Not defending Musk or Tesla here, but simply avoid the above sources to start with.
Better tell that to the Dutch newspapers as well then because that is where I got the story from and I simply Googled for an English version. I did wonder why every Brittisch news paper website has half naked ladies on it so thanks for explaining that  :-+

Dutch newspaper probably syndicated The Sun...
« Last Edit: September 08, 2018, 07:17:21 pm by bd139 »
 

Offline coppercone2

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Re: Elon Musk can stick his submarine where it hurts
« Reply #181 on: September 08, 2018, 07:19:26 pm »
you are calling giving sick people a good medicine a escalation? do you have a time machine from the 1950's?

synthetic cannabinoids are a strong drug. people adopt it because there is a desire fro strong drugs. where do you draw the correlation to something thats been around forever? this is like nixon era thinking
« Last Edit: September 08, 2018, 07:24:47 pm by coppercone2 »
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Elon Musk can stick his submarine where it hurts
« Reply #182 on: September 08, 2018, 08:00:18 pm »
His experience is representative believe me. My sister worked in NHS mental health for 5 years. 90% of the cases they had were drug related and mostly cannabis related. The harder stuff ends up in the morgue or on the streets and never comes back for treatment. Any drug use is a total shit show of destroyed lives and families almost unconditionally. That includes alcohol, tobacco for ref, both of which have really bad health outcomes even if they don’t ruin you via mental health. In countries where healthcare isn’t free, you pay or suffer so no one gives a fuck. Here in the UK everyone pays for every fucked up mess.

I’ll eat my hat if they don’t start another bout of prohibition in the next decade in the US because half the population is fucked up.

BTW It’s not a gateway drug but it links you to people who are a gateway to other drugs. That semantic difference is the elephant in the room.
I not only don't believe it, but I know it to be factually untrue. Not the personal experiences, but the broader picture it's extrapolated to. I don't think this is the right place to discuss any of that though, so I'll leave it at that.
 

Offline bd139

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Re: Elon Musk can stick his submarine where it hurts
« Reply #183 on: September 08, 2018, 08:01:47 pm »
you are calling giving sick people a good medicine a escalation? do you have a time machine from the 1950's?

synthetic cannabinoids are a strong drug. people adopt it because there is a desire fro strong drugs. where do you draw the correlation to something thats been around forever? this is like nixon era thinking

Absolutely not. Regulated medication is fine.

His experience is representative believe me. My sister worked in NHS mental health for 5 years. 90% of the cases they had were drug related and mostly cannabis related. The harder stuff ends up in the morgue or on the streets and never comes back for treatment. Any drug use is a total shit show of destroyed lives and families almost unconditionally. That includes alcohol, tobacco for ref, both of which have really bad health outcomes even if they don’t ruin you via mental health. In countries where healthcare isn’t free, you pay or suffer so no one gives a fuck. Here in the UK everyone pays for every fucked up mess.

I’ll eat my hat if they don’t start another bout of prohibition in the next decade in the US because half the population is fucked up.

BTW It’s not a gateway drug but it links you to people who are a gateway to other drugs. That semantic difference is the elephant in the room.
I not only don't believe it, but I know it to be factually untrue. Not the personal experiences, but the broader picture it's extrapolated to. I don't think this is the right place to discuss any of that though, so I'll leave it at that.

The broader picture is unpopular. Give it time. Seriously. People tell me time and time again that the extrapolation isn’t valid. NHS publish very good data on this. Go look.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2018, 08:05:31 pm by bd139 »
 

Offline Domagoj T

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Re: Elon Musk can stick his submarine where it hurts
« Reply #184 on: September 08, 2018, 08:04:45 pm »
 
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Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Elon Musk can stick his submarine where it hurts
« Reply #185 on: September 08, 2018, 08:31:59 pm »
Absolutely not. Regulated medication is fine.

The broader picture is unpopular. Give it time. Seriously. People tell me time and time again that the extrapolation isn’t valid. NHS publish very good data on this. Go look.
I'm not dealing with popular opinion, but published and peer reviewed facts. Opinions are of no consequence. Yet again, that's a discussion for elsewhere. This all has nothing to do with Musk, a football team stuck in a cave or a submarine.
 
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Offline vk6zgo

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Re: Elon Musk can stick his submarine where it hurts
« Reply #186 on: September 09, 2018, 02:53:02 am »
It seems Elon has more problems. A survey from the UK shows that Tesla makes the worst cars of all brands:
https://www.thesun.co.uk/motors/7190167/elon-musk-tesla-least-reliable-cars/

It's also What Car, a HCM publication. They have almost complete ownership of motorsport and print media in the UK. Buy one of their magazines and look who the high value ad sponsors are. Literally do not trust anything on paper printed by the UK media. It's total shite. All of it. To note, the Sun, aggregating here has a target market of racist dumbasses who want to see tits and shame with some words between them, but not too many words because "reading is for fags".

Not defending Musk or Tesla here, but simply avoid the above sources to start with.
Better tell that to the Dutch newspapers as well then because that is where I got the story from and I simply Googled for an English version. I did wonder why every Brittisch news paper website has half naked ladies on it so thanks for explaining that  :-+

Off the main topic, but to do with the naked ladies.
Back in the day, the "West Australian" newspaper in my hometown was required to divest itself of the evening paper "The Daily News".

Sir Larry Lamb from England bought it, & gave it a makeover, with "norks" ( boobs) on page 3, & a generally lightweight  stance for news.

It went over like a "wrought iron hanglider", & soon disappeared, or in OzSpeak, "went down the gurgler"!   ;D
 

Offline Eka

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Re: Elon Musk can stick his submarine where it hurts
« Reply #187 on: September 09, 2018, 05:53:42 am »
Back to electrics of a sort.

But I don't think Tesla is going to make it.
Engineering is an applied science and has to take academics, dreamers, ideas and build something, which has been done.
The manufacturing aspect it seems is a disaster for Tesla.
Think of Tesla's manufacturing being a means to provide cheaper more efficient energy use solutions, and provide the electricity to run them. Some parts they sell like the cars, trucks, some Powerwalls and some Powerpacks. For others they retain ownership and sell the electricity like with some Powerwall, and Powerpack installations. Selling the energy is where the gravy train is. Not in the hardware that uses it. See cars, trucks, and oil.

I expect Tesla will succeed. When you have multiple people, corporations, and investment funds willing to invest hundreds of millions or even billions, you have to be doing something right. Tesla is changing the game, and providing cost savings to their customers in most markets they move into.

As for the accountant resigning. A company into as many countries and unusual financing like Tesla has, is a very different accounting beast than a normal company. Not only does Tesla have manufacturing, they also generate and sell electricity. They are a utility in many jurisdictions. That alone is an accounting nightmare. They also have projects where specific investors are invested in, but not invested in other projects. As Musk has said, Tesla is really an energy company, not just a car and battery manufacturer. When they sell trucks and charging stations to a company, they will also sell the electricity to run them. When they install a Powerwall or Powerpack system, they will sell the user the electricity to charge it, or if Tesla provided the capital to install it, then sell the electricity off of it to the customer. To top it off, they save their customers money in the process. Users of Powerwalls and Powerpacks have been very happy with them.

After the installation of a utility scale Powerpack system with wind farm to charge it in South Australia, utilities are looking at the savings South Australia is getting and want one for themselves. It reduced peaking power plant operation costs by 90%. Peaking power plants are considered a necessary evil by electrical utilities because they have to have them due to the large electricity generation power plants not being able to quickly ramp up and down electrical generation to stay with the fine grained changes in demand. Unfortunately the cost of the electricity generated by peaking power plants is very expensive compared to that generated by the large electricity generation power plants. A utility scale Powerpack system takes over the peaking function, and does it much better. Even if the energy used to charge it is generated by a regular power plant, it will still save the utility money. That is because even after losses during storage and conversion back into AC, the electricity will still cost much less than that generated by a traditional peaking plant.

I expect Tesla's biggest problem will be keeping up with demand. They will be a victim of their own success. I expect another giga factory or more being needed in the next decade, and they already have the investors begging to help pay for them, and pay for the Powerwall installations.
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: Elon Musk can stick his submarine where it hurts
« Reply #188 on: September 09, 2018, 10:59:31 am »
Back to electrics of a sort.

But I don't think Tesla is going to make it.
Engineering is an applied science and has to take academics, dreamers, ideas and build something, which has been done.
The manufacturing aspect it seems is a disaster for Tesla.
Think of Tesla's manufacturing being a means to provide cheaper more efficient energy use solutions, and provide the electricity to run them. Some parts they sell like the cars, trucks, some Powerwalls and some Powerpacks. For others they retain ownership and sell the electricity like with some Powerwall, and Powerpack installations. Selling the energy is where the gravy train is. Not in the hardware that uses it. See cars, trucks, and oil.

I expect Tesla will succeed.
You are forgetting Tesla is a very small player compared to other car manufacturers (and other sectors Elon Musk is active in). Many people have compared Tesla with Apple. Although succesful Apple is nowhere near a market leader with any of their products. Even today Tesla is not the worlds biggest electric car manufacturer when looking at numbers of cars sold. Like Apple Tesla likes to pretend they are god's gift but the reality is they aren't.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 
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Offline mtdoc

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Re: Elon Musk can stick his submarine where it hurts
« Reply #189 on: September 09, 2018, 02:49:54 pm »
Many people have compared Tesla with Apple. Although succesful Apple  .....

Quite an understatement!

Given that Apple is the largest and arguably the most profitable company in the world, your whole argument really makes no sense.

Quote
Like Apple Tesla likes to pretend they are god's gift but the reality is they aren't.
You seem to be projecting thoughts/feelings into a corporation which is incapable of such. Perhaps you mean Jobs (or Cook) and Musk? In reality, these companies are made up of thousands of individuals, each with their own unique perspective.

From a corporate standpoint, with a goal of growth and increasing shareholder value, both companies have been extremely successful by any standard. 

(BTW I get no joy from this fact, having sold my Apple stock years ago  :palm: and never owning TSLA)
« Last Edit: September 09, 2018, 02:51:26 pm by mtdoc »
 

Offline hans

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Re: Elon Musk can stick his submarine where it hurts
« Reply #190 on: September 09, 2018, 03:25:43 pm »
If you just look at the products; the customer experience and right to repair is very similar. I mean that in both good and bad ways.

In terms of financial health for the company, unfortunately, it hasn't completely worked out yet though.
 

Offline coppercone2

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Re: Elon Musk can stick his submarine where it hurts
« Reply #191 on: September 09, 2018, 03:29:44 pm »
do you guys believe the conspiracies against Tesla, I read he suspects (in NYT) that there are basically paid saboteurs in his assembly line for some kind of market reasons?

Kinda thought he might be working too many hours when I read that though (120 hours a week is no beueno, I would actually be more concerned about his sleep cycles then drug use). After pulling a few weeks like that he should take a vacation for a month or limit himself to like 25 hours a week for a while at least.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/19/business/elon-musk-tesla-employee-sabotage.html
« Last Edit: September 09, 2018, 03:31:46 pm by coppercone2 »
 

Offline mtdoc

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Re: Elon Musk can stick his submarine where it hurts
« Reply #192 on: September 09, 2018, 04:45:50 pm »
do you guys believe the conspiracies against Tesla, I read he suspects (in NYT) that there are basically paid saboteurs in his assembly line for some kind of market reasons?

I spend a lot of time reading and following several well connected people in finance. There is no doubt that there is a very active and vocal group of shorts who have millions of dollars at stake betting on the decline in TSLA.    It's not an unreasonable assertion by Musk..

I do think TSLA is currently overvalued (as are many companies currently) and Musk himself has admitted as much.   It will surely fall down to earth with the coming market crash and overdue recession.    Whether it survives as an independent company and goes on to grow and expand in the way Apple did is an open question.  IMHO it depends on many things - most of which Musk has no control over.  Obviously many people are betting that it will happen - but there is no question that some very active and vocal shorts will do anything in there power to cause the company to fail. They and many others (many here) are very vocal in their disdain for the company, its CEO and their products.  In that way they are very much like Apple.
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: Elon Musk can stick his submarine where it hurts
« Reply #193 on: September 09, 2018, 09:35:40 pm »
Many people have compared Tesla with Apple. Although succesful Apple  .....
Quite an understatement!

Given that Apple is the largest and arguably the most profitable company in the world, your whole argument really makes no sense.
It makes a lot of sense. Not so long ago Apple was about to go under so being highly profitable now doesn't mean the business model is sound. The release of their iPhone as a fashion item was probably more luck than wisdom. And despite being highly profitable Apple still operates in a market dominated by much bigger other players. It doesn't take much to go loose traction and go out of business. Look at Blackberry and Nokia. There are a lot of parallels between Apple, Blackberry, Nokia and Tesla but they are all in a different cycle of their 'lives'.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline mtdoc

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Re: Elon Musk can stick his submarine where it hurts
« Reply #194 on: September 09, 2018, 10:10:41 pm »
It makes a lot of sense. Not so long ago Apple was about to go under so being highly profitable now doesn't mean the business model is sound.
:wtf:  What are you smoking?

 Apple has the largest market capitalization of ANY COMPANY ON THE PLANET.  It was the second ever trillion dollar company (and the first to maintain that value). It is generally considered to be the most profitable and have the soundest financials (based on multiple metrics) of any of the large corporations. 

Are you still living in the 1990s?
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: Elon Musk can stick his submarine where it hurts
« Reply #195 on: September 09, 2018, 11:11:25 pm »
It makes a lot of sense. Not so long ago Apple was about to go under so being highly profitable now doesn't mean the business model is sound.
:wtf:  What are you smoking?

 Apple has the largest market capitalization of ANY COMPANY ON THE PLANET.  It was the second ever trillion dollar company (and the first to maintain that value). It is generally considered to be the most profitable and have the soundest financials (based on multiple metrics) of any of the large corporations. 
Share value doesn't say much because it can all go up in smoke in (almost) an instance. The bottom line still is: Apple only has one product line (mobile devices) which sells well. That is not a good position for any company to be in. Hence Apple's attempts to diversify and enter new markets like music distribution and self driving cars.

And you don't have to go back to the 90's. Less than 10 years ago Apple wasn't nearly making as much money as it is today. Results from the past don't predict the results in the future so I really don't care how much money Apple makes or it's share value today. That is history.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2018, 11:13:39 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline mtdoc

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Re: Elon Musk can stick his submarine where it hurts
« Reply #196 on: September 09, 2018, 11:18:25 pm »

Share value doesn't say much because it can all go up in smoke in (almost) an instance. The bottom line still is: Apple only has one product line (mobile devices) which sells well.
:palm:
You clearly know nothing about finance and very little about Apple. Claiming that the largest and most financially successful company on the planet has a business model which is not sound is not only factually incorrect but just simply ludicrous.  (And FWIW, phone sales only account for 56% of Apple's revenue).

Quote
And you don't have to go back to the 90's. Less than 10 years ago Apple wasn't nearly making as much money as it is today
  ::) Yes, it does make more money and is larger now! That is good. 10 years ago it was still one of the largest, most financially sound companies in the world.  The fact that it is making even more money now just shows how ludicrous your assertion that its business model is not sound is.

I was a holder of AAPL stock and an active trader of AAPL options 10 years ago. My mistake was thinking it had fulfilled its growth potential 6 years ago. |O

Will Apple forever be the most dominant tech company? - no, of course not.  It will fade away at some point - as all large companies eventually do.  But currently, and for the past decade, it's business model has proved the most successful of any tech company and has resulted in incredible return for its investors.  If I had just held onto my AAPL, I'd be able to retire now... :'(

« Last Edit: September 09, 2018, 11:42:52 pm by mtdoc »
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Elon Musk can stick his submarine where it hurts
« Reply #197 on: September 09, 2018, 11:42:08 pm »
Share value doesn't say much because it can all go up in smoke in (almost) an instance. The bottom line still is: Apple only has one product line (mobile devices) which sells well. That is not a good position for any company to be in. Hence Apple's attempts to diversify and enter new markets like music distribution and self driving cars.

And you don't have to go back to the 90's. Less than 10 years ago Apple wasn't nearly making as much money as it is today. Results from the past don't predict the results in the future so I really don't care how much money Apple makes or it's share value today. That is history.
Share value isn't everything, but it's not that irrelevant either. However, Apple is also the richest company. They're sitting on around 300 billion. That's a stupidly large pile of money. You could literally buy countries for that.

That's enough to buy some serious influence until long after you stop being relevant.
 

Offline Jeroen3

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Re: Elon Musk can stick his submarine where it hurts
« Reply #198 on: September 10, 2018, 10:55:05 am »
Apple is also exploiting their size. For every part they need to ask two or more manufacturers. And often there are only a few capable of the volume.
Then these manufacturers have to outbid each other in both price and quality. They demand ridiculous yields that have to be renegotiated, often with a lower price. And if you don't make the yield (still deliver faulty parts) you pay for the wrongly assembled products.

This is still an enormous guaranteed job for the manufacturer when it's in, but they certainly squeeze it.

Tesla is in no way capable of doing this for parts, yet. For people it might work though, because you can then say you work at Tesla. I think Google also does this with people.
Lower pay to be able to say that you've worked at Google.

do you guys believe the conspiracies against Tesla, I read he suspects (in NYT) that there are basically paid saboteurs in his assembly line for some kind of market reasons?

Kinda thought he might be working too many hours when I read that though (120 hours a week is no beueno, I would actually be more concerned about his sleep cycles then drug use). After pulling a few weeks like that he should take a vacation for a month or limit himself to like 25 hours a week for a while at least.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/19/business/elon-musk-tesla-employee-sabotage.html
Corporate espionage is everywhere. Tesla is having explosive growth, they have hired many people. HR will be very busy dealing with all of this. It's inevitable that eventually someone gets in. This happens everywhere eventually. Even faster when you have many enemies, or when the Chinese are interested.
 

Offline wraper

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Re: Elon Musk can stick his submarine where it hurts
« Reply #199 on: September 10, 2018, 11:32:45 am »
do you guys believe the conspiracies against Tesla, I read he suspects (in NYT) that there are basically paid saboteurs in his assembly line for some kind of market reasons?

Kinda thought he might be working too many hours when I read that though (120 hours a week is no beueno, I would actually be more concerned about his sleep cycles then drug use). After pulling a few weeks like that he should take a vacation for a month or limit himself to like 25 hours a week for a while at least.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/19/business/elon-musk-tesla-employee-sabotage.html
But it's a real story with at least one known person behind sabotage who know cries whistleblowing.
 


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