Author Topic: Elon Musk can stick his submarine where it hurts  (Read 13234 times)

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Offline wraper

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Re: Elon Musk can stick his submarine where it hurts
« Reply #75 on: July 15, 2018, 09:22:49 pm »
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Stay tuned jackass …

— Elon Musk (@elonmusk) July 15, 2018
 

Offline chris_leyson

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Re: Elon Musk can stick his submarine where it hurts
« Reply #76 on: July 15, 2018, 09:23:30 pm »
Thanks GeorgeOfTheJungle you made my point. Exactly how far are you going to get that into a cave system with something rigid, maybe 8' to 10' long and at least twice the size of a diver. Not very far at all. You've got tight bends, boulders on the floor some of them massive in places, no headroom and really really steep slippery muddy slopes to negotiate. You would risk killing members of the rescue team and guarantee killing the people you are trying to rescue.
I speak from experience and I've only ever done dry caves and maybe the odd mine. If it's wet system then it's orders of magnitude more dangerous.
Fair dinkum, he made the effort but I don't think he has the mental grasp of what a cave system is really like and that is probably true when it comes to eevblog forum members as well, clueless, because you have no practical experience. Those who think otherwise, well maybe you should get off your skinny ass and try it. Thanks GeorgeOfTheJungle, a cave ain't some swimming pool FFS. I think Vern Unsworth was right, and Bud, it ain't funny.
Quote
That looks like a very reasonable attempt at a solution to the problem.
No it's not, get off your ass and go crawl through a cave, then would have some idea. Judging by pretty pictures is for clueless managers - engineers on the other hand are more practical.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2018, 09:53:58 pm by chris_leyson »
 

Offline langwadt

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Re: Elon Musk can stick his submarine where it hurts
« Reply #77 on: July 15, 2018, 09:36:56 pm »
Elon Musk seem to have totally lost the plot

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DiJ8aAKWAAEXFJv.jpg
I'd say he shouldn't feed the trolls, but I like that he is seemingly putting his money where his mouth is. It's probably more effective than arguing on Twitter about it.

calling the guy a pedo for not liking his submarine is not feeding the trolls or arguing on twitter, that's a whole other level of crazy

 

Offline mtdoc

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Re: Elon Musk can stick his submarine where it hurts
« Reply #78 on: July 15, 2018, 10:12:34 pm »
No it's not, get off your ass and go crawl through a cave, then would have some idea.

 :palm:  Well, actually I have been caving, canyoneering and even cave diving through  lava tubes off the Kona coast of Hawaii (some sections so narrow enough that my belly and the back of my tank were scraping the coral as I pulled myself through).

For many caves that sub would work just fine. Not all caves are super tight or twisty.   Do you have information about the exact dimensions of the cave or are you just another internet armchair expert?

Notice the adjustable metal bracing that the sub is going through. I suspect that was adjusted to mimic the cave dimensions they were provided.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2018, 10:35:19 pm by mtdoc »
 

Offline mtdoc

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Re: Elon Musk can stick his submarine where it hurts
« Reply #79 on: July 15, 2018, 10:29:38 pm »
Elon Musk seem to have totally lost the plot

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DiJ8aAKWAAEXFJv.jpg
I'd say he shouldn't feed the trolls, but I like that he is seemingly putting his money where his mouth is. It's probably more effective than arguing on Twitter about it.

I agree. Musk spends too much time on twitter responding to the haters and feeding the trolls.  Just goes to show he's human.

The bottom line is he leads a couple of companies with remarkable engineering teams and the fact that they were able to put together a working prototype based on the info they were given from the divers on sight is quite impressive.
 
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Offline chris_leyson

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Re: Elon Musk can stick his submarine where it hurts
« Reply #80 on: July 15, 2018, 11:41:36 pm »
"pedo guy", what's that all about, the poster can't even spell properly, that's another level of crazy, stupid for sure.
I just noticed, the 8" to 10" long "submarine" should have been 8' to 10' long, bloody imperial nomenclature, maybe 3m, close enough. Try getting a small 3m long I beam or steel bar through a cave system without bending it or getting stuck. Easy, peice of piss, yeah well go try it then. Easy for big tourist caves, you got a walk way built in. Too many people are being judgemental based on what they read in the press because they don't understand cave conditions.

Go into a dry cave and you can crawl and squeeze anywhere depending on how you can wriggle your hips or ass because that's where you are going to get stuck. Ledges and sink holes, avoid them at all costs because it's a one way journey. My younger brother fell down a mine shaft and his rucksack got stuck half way down, lucky bugger. Slopes, well they're variable depending on the amount water errosion and mud, you can have some grip or bugger all grip. Sumps, your're lucky if they are dry, if they're muddy and there is potential of rain fall then they're are a one way ticket unless you can free dive it back in the dark.
It's caving not rocket science.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2018, 11:46:37 pm by chris_leyson »
 

Offline wraper

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Re: Elon Musk can stick his submarine where it hurts
« Reply #81 on: July 15, 2018, 11:46:02 pm »
"pedo guy", what's that all about, the poster can't even spell properly, that's another level of crazy, stupid for sure.
I just noticed, the 8" to 10" long "submarine" should have been 8' to 10' long, bloody imperial nomenclature, maybe 3m, close enough. Try getting a small 3m long I beam or steel bar through a cave system without bending it or getting stuck. Easy, peice of piss, yeah well go try it then. Easy for big tourist caves, you got a walk way built in. Too many people are being judgemental based on what they read in the press because they don't understand cave conditions.
You just almost doubled it's actual length  :palm:.

Quote
The pod measures approximately 66 inches by 16 inches
Which is 168 by 41cm
« Last Edit: July 15, 2018, 11:50:27 pm by wraper »
 

Offline mtdoc

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Re: Elon Musk can stick his submarine where it hurts
« Reply #82 on: July 16, 2018, 12:10:21 am »
Too many people are being judgemental based on what they read in the press because they don't understand cave conditions.

Exactly. Musk's team was given first hand information from the divers on site and detailed video of the passage.  What would his engineers have to gain by making a prototype that would not meet the provided dimensions?  And even if their prototype was tested and did not quite "measure up" - so what. At least they tried to help.  This forum of all places should have people that understand the challenges in getting a prototype just right the first time. Another company that was also asked to try and build a similar sub did not even finish their plans by the time Musk's team was already testing their prototype

The length the Musk haters go to in trying to tear him down is almost pathologic.

Personally, I'm not a huge Musk fan. I think his Mars ideas are FOS. He's a businessman who does a lot of self promotion - that's what business people do and I always find it distasteful. He's also a futurist who dreams big and that requires promotion to bring others along if he has any chance of seeing his dreams realized.   But FFS, he's achieved some remarkable things and has led teams that have accomplished some remarkable engineering feats. That is worthy of some admiration.
 

Offline ChunkyPastaSauce

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Re: Elon Musk can stick his submarine where it hurts
« Reply #83 on: July 16, 2018, 12:25:13 am »
Elon Musk seem to have totally lost the plot
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DiJ8aAKWAAEXFJv.jpg
I'd say he shouldn't feed the trolls, but I like that he is seemingly putting his money where his mouth is. It's probably more effective than arguing on Twitter about it.
calling the guy a pedo for not liking his submarine is not feeding the trolls or arguing on twitter, that's a whole other level of crazy

Also crazy/stupid, a navy seal died plus all the other highly skilled divers involved warning about the dangers of traversing, ....and yet he's willing to send people in, risking their lives to float a tube down a cave, for his own sole purpose of 'would have maybe worked too! see!!'

"You know what, don't bother showing the video. We will make one of the mini-sub/pod going all the way to Cave 5 no problemo. Sorry pedo guy, you really did ask for it." -Elon


 

Offline mtdoc

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Re: Elon Musk can stick his submarine where it hurts
« Reply #84 on: July 16, 2018, 12:32:36 am »
Also crazy/stupid, a navy seal died plus all the other highly skilled divers involved warning about the dangers of traversing, ....and yet he's willing to send people in, risking their lives to float a tube down a cave, for his own sole purpose of 'would have maybe worked too! see!!'

Perhaps you didn't realize that he was asked by the person leading the dive team to do this. And that guy is is Richard Stanton. So all the self professed caving experts really look foolish.

« Last Edit: July 16, 2018, 12:37:51 am by mtdoc »
 
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Offline chris_leyson

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Re: Elon Musk can stick his submarine where it hurts
« Reply #85 on: July 16, 2018, 01:05:54 am »
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You just almost doubled it's actual length  :palm:.
You see what I mean, pictures are useless, they are for managers not engineers. It was a ball park approximation, I didn't digitally anal-ize it, I might have spelled that wrong. Maybe 3m is an over estimation, 2.5m overall length might be closer but to say I doubled it's actual length is a bit unfair. Even at 2m you would be well and truly screwed trying to navigate it around a cave system. If it was flexable you might have a chance.

The obvious, in hind sight, might be a zip up "dry suit" without the lead boots and the screw on bronze helmet. You have to somehow suck some air out of the suit to make it skin tight whilst providing adequate breathing air pressure to the wearer. Flight suits for pilots pulling a lot a Gs are well established so setting up compression areas to restict airflow within the suit might be a possiblity. The escape suit, just like it's wearer it's flexible and it bends around corners and you can sqeeze it through tight spaces. For it to work it has to be more space suit rather than space capsule.
 

Offline mtdoc

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Re: Elon Musk can stick his submarine where it hurts
« Reply #86 on: July 16, 2018, 01:09:44 am »
Even at 2m you would be well and truly screwed trying to navigate it around a cave system.

You don't know that since you do not know the cave dimensions. The divers on site for this cave system do.

And BTW the length is 1.68m not 2.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2018, 01:11:43 am by mtdoc »
 

Offline wraper

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Re: Elon Musk can stick his submarine where it hurts
« Reply #87 on: July 16, 2018, 01:15:08 am »
Quote
You just almost doubled it's actual length  :palm:.
You see what I mean, pictures are useless, they are for managers not engineers. It was a ball park approximation, I didn't digitally anal-ize it, I might have spelled that wrong. Maybe 3m is an over estimation, 2.5m overall length might be closer but to say I doubled it's actual length is a bit unfair. Even at 2m you would be well and truly screwed trying to navigate it around a cave system. If it was flexable you might have a chance.
I quoted actual size but you are guesstimating yet again. saying 3m instead of 168 cm is exactly "almost doubling". Vessel specs were negotiated with actual diving expert who was in that cave.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Elon Musk can stick his submarine where it hurts
« Reply #88 on: July 16, 2018, 01:18:40 am »
What's with all the emotional zeal here?

I have mixed thoughts on Musk, I think in some circles he has been made bigger than life but whatever, so he tried something here that turned out to not be viable, so what? How much have the people ripping on him over this contributed to solving the problem at hand? I'll give the guy credit for trying, he was not the least bit obligated to do so and could have spent the time and money taking a fancy vacation or whatever it is he does for fun.
 
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Offline ChunkyPastaSauce

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Re: Elon Musk can stick his submarine where it hurts
« Reply #89 on: July 16, 2018, 01:25:45 am »
Also crazy/stupid, a navy seal died plus all the other highly skilled divers involved warning about the dangers of traversing, ....and yet he's willing to send people in, risking their lives to float a tube down a cave, for his own sole purpose of 'would have maybe worked too! see!!'

Perhaps you didn't realize that he was asked by the person leading the dive team to do this. And that guy is is Richard Stanton. So all the self professed caving experts really look foolish.



Is this true? Can you send the article/post where Stanton says they should send people back into the cave to test the tube, after the rescue was complete? 
 

Offline mtdoc

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Offline ataradov

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Re: Elon Musk can stick his submarine where it hurts
« Reply #91 on: July 16, 2018, 01:34:22 am »
Is this true? Can you send the article/post where Stanton says they should send people back into the cave to test the tube, after the rescue was complete? 
Well, the quote is true, but it does not imply that they need to do anything after the rescue is complete.

Apart from somewhat vain attempt to prove himself right, it is not a bad idea to test it in the actual cave, to have the thing tested in some sort of real-life conditions.
Alex
 

Offline ChunkyPastaSauce

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Re: Elon Musk can stick his submarine where it hurts
« Reply #92 on: July 16, 2018, 01:34:45 am »
Is this true?

Yes

That's from July 8 when people were still in the cave and Stanton was worried the cave was going to flood. Haven't seen anything so far where Stanton is now recommending people go back into the cave to test the tube.
 

Offline mtdoc

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Re: Elon Musk can stick his submarine where it hurts
« Reply #93 on: July 16, 2018, 01:38:42 am »
Is this true?

Yes

That's from July 8 when people were still in the cave and Stanton was worried the cave was going to flood. Haven't seen anything so far where Stanton is now recommending people go back into the cave to test the tube.

What does that have to do with what I posted? Who said he did? You are changing the subject.

Bottom line. One of the worlds foremost expert cave divers who was co-leading the rescue team asked Musks team to do this. They did it!

Turns out it was not needed. Hurray!  They got the kids out alive.

The ongoing attacks on Musk about this shows more about those doing the the attacking than anything else.
 

Offline ChunkyPastaSauce

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Re: Elon Musk can stick his submarine where it hurts
« Reply #94 on: July 16, 2018, 01:38:59 am »
Apart from somewhat vain attempt to prove himself right, it is not a bad idea to test it in the actual cave, to have the thing tested in some sort of real-life conditions.
Continue working on it and testing in a controlled way would be fine and good. Going back immediately to test in an uncontrolled space with an essentially untested device put together in a week, to find out if you're right or not, is stupid imo.
 

Offline mtdoc

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Re: Elon Musk can stick his submarine where it hurts
« Reply #95 on: July 16, 2018, 01:47:24 am »
Apart from somewhat vain attempt to prove himself right, it is not a bad idea to test it in the actual cave, to have the thing tested in some sort of real-life conditions.
Continue working on it and testing in a controlled way would be fine and good. Going back immediately to test in an uncontrolled space with an essentially untested device put together in a week, to find out if you're right or not, is stupid imo.

Well it has been tested.  And I agree with atarodov, testing in real world conditions would be the next step.

The Thai Navy Seal death is a red herring. He ran out of oxygen. It's certain that in testing this that won't happen. Cave diving is done every day by experienced and inexperienced divers. Yes, it is dangerous. I've done it once but it's not for me.

I wouldn't be surprised if after all the publicity this rescue has had that this cave becomes a tourist attraction and during flooding the cave divers are waiting in line to try it out.
 

Offline vk6zgo

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Re: Elon Musk can stick his submarine where it hurts
« Reply #96 on: July 16, 2018, 01:48:45 am »
"pedo guy", what's that all about, the poster can't even spell properly, that's another level of crazy, stupid for sure.
I just noticed, the 8" to 10" long "submarine" should have been 8' to 10' long, bloody imperial nomenclature, maybe 3m, close enough. Try getting a small 3m long I beam or steel bar through a cave system without bending it or getting stuck. Easy, peice of piss, yeah well go try it then. Easy for big tourist caves, you got a walk way built in. Too many people are being judgemental based on what they read in the press because they don't understand cave conditions.
You just almost doubled it's actual length  :palm:.

Quote
The pod measures approximately 66 inches by 16 inches
Which is 168 by 41cm

In the linked video, the "sub" seems longer than the divers.
Most adult males of  European descent are taller than me, & I am 172.72 cm, so this in itself suggests the thing cannot be the quoted length.

Perhaps they mean internal dimensions?
 

Offline mtdoc

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Re: Elon Musk can stick his submarine where it hurts
« Reply #97 on: July 16, 2018, 01:53:09 am »
In the linked video, the "sub" seems longer than the divers.
Most adult males of  European descent are taller than me, & I am 172.72 cm, so this in itself suggests the thing cannot be the quoted length.
Perhaps they mean internal dimensions?

I suspect the one in the video is not exactly the same size as the one they would have provided. In the video the test subject does not appear to be a kid.
 

Offline ChunkyPastaSauce

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Re: Elon Musk can stick his submarine where it hurts
« Reply #98 on: July 16, 2018, 01:57:24 am »
What does that have to do with what I posted? Who said he did? You are changing the subject.
I didn't change the subject please check quotes to root (langwadt)


Elon Musk seem to have totally lost the plot
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DiJ8aAKWAAEXFJv.jpg
I'd say he shouldn't feed the trolls, but I like that he is seemingly putting his money where his mouth is. It's probably more effective than arguing on Twitter about it.
calling the guy a pedo for not liking his submarine is not feeding the trolls or arguing on twitter, that's a whole other level of crazy
Also crazy/stupid, a navy seal died plus all the other highly skilled divers involved warning about the dangers of traversing, ....and yet he's willing to send people in, risking their lives to float a tube down a cave, for his own sole purpose of 'would have maybe worked too! see!!'
"You know what, don't bother showing the video. We will make one of the mini-sub/pod going all the way to Cave 5 no problemo. Sorry pedo guy, you really did ask for it." -Elon
Perhaps you didn't realize that he was asked by the person leading the dive team to do this. And that guy is is Richard Stanton. So all the self professed caving experts really look foolish.
Is this true? Can you send the article/post where Stanton says they should send people back into the cave to test the tube, after the rescue was complete? 
Yes
That's from July 8 when people were still in the cave and Stanton was worried the cave was going to flood. Haven't seen anything so far where Stanton is now recommending people go back into the cave to test the tube.
 
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Offline mtdoc

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Re: Elon Musk can stick his submarine where it hurts
« Reply #99 on: July 16, 2018, 02:04:15 am »
I didn't change the subject please check quotes to root (langwadt)

OK - fair enough -but it had nothing to do with my post that you were responding to and I've seen no one claim that Stanton asked Musk to test it in the cave after the fact.  Looking back I guess I should have clarified that I was not offering that info specifically to address your post - just to address the idea that he was developing this sub without any request or guidance from the divers on site.  So my apologies for my contribution to the confusion.

BTW - I just checked. The height of the average adult Thai male is 167 cm.  The boys rescued would likely have all been shorter than this. So it makes sense that the overall length would be 168 cm.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2018, 02:09:27 am by mtdoc »
 
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