Author Topic: Elon Musk can stick his submarine where it hurts  (Read 13156 times)

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Online ebastler

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Re: Elon Musk can stick his submarine where it hurts
« Reply #50 on: July 15, 2018, 09:21:16 am »
someone with the means and ability to help, OFFERING to do just that.

Without all the Tweeting, I might have seen Musk's "offering" in a different light.
 

Offline Dubbie

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Re: Elon Musk can stick his submarine where it hurts
« Reply #51 on: July 15, 2018, 09:24:53 am »
someone with the means and ability to help, OFFERING to do just that.

Without all the Tweeting, I might have seen Musk's "offering" in a different light.

Do you have the emIl address of the rescue coordinator in your contacts list? It might be hard to believe for some, but Twitter can be a very efficient way of contacting someone when you don’t have any existing lines of communication. Especially when you might not know exactly who you need to be talking to.
 

Online rolycat

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Re: Elon Musk can stick his submarine where it hurts
« Reply #52 on: July 15, 2018, 09:32:27 am »
In the field of cave dive rescue, Elon Musk is practically the definition of a dilettante. To quote the Cambridge dictionary:

"a person who is or seems to be interested in a subject, but whose understanding of it is not very deep or serious"

He was clearly interested and concerned, but equally clearly his understanding of the field was anything but deep.

Well before the rescue was successfully carried out, media all over the world carried diagrams of the cave system illustrating that sections of the access route included a tight right-angle bend and a section which was only 15" in diameter, where divers had to remove their air bottles in order to squeeze through. In addition, visibility was effectively zero, so divers had to feel their way forward. The likelihood of a mini-submarine being useful was infinitesimally small.

I am by no means a Musk hater, but in this case he was clearly and almost literally out of his depth.
 

Offline Dubbie

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Re: Elon Musk can stick his submarine where it hurts
« Reply #53 on: July 15, 2018, 09:49:57 am »
Show me where he claimed to be a cave diving expert.  He specifically said that he was taking advice from expert divers. What he is, is an expert in building life support rated craft for extreme conditions. (Dragon2, dragon life support suits)  He had the thought that perhaps this could be a useful contribution.

I don’t know why you are trying so hard to shit on someone else’s earnest attempts to help others in desperate need.
 

Online ebastler

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Re: Elon Musk can stick his submarine where it hurts
« Reply #54 on: July 15, 2018, 09:54:47 am »
Without all the Tweeting, I might have seen Musk's "offering" in a different light.
Do you have the emIl address of the rescue coordinator in your contacts list? It might be hard to believe for some, but Twitter can be a very efficient way of contacting someone when you don’t have any existing lines of communication. Especially when you might not know exactly who you need to be talking to.

Yes, I'm sure that's why Musk kept tweeting about this.  :palm:

Come on.  The man has his merits and certainly has achieved a lot. But you can't deny the "self important" aspect of his personality, and his very active interest in PR.
 

Online bd139

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Re: Elon Musk can stick his submarine where it hurts
« Reply #55 on: July 15, 2018, 09:55:12 am »
I don’t know why you are trying so hard to shit on someone else’s earnest attempts to help others in desperate need.

Because contributing an opinion is easier than contributing to a solution.

If I'd had that attitude my entire life to every idea that had been proposed to me then I'd have missed a few very important ones.
 
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Online rolycat

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Re: Elon Musk can stick his submarine where it hurts
« Reply #56 on: July 15, 2018, 10:13:19 am »
Show me where he claimed to be a cave diving expert.  He specifically said that he was taking advice from expert divers. What he is, is an expert in building life support rated craft for extreme conditions. (Dragon2, dragon life support suits)  He had the thought that perhaps this could be a useful contribution.

I don’t know why you are trying so hard to shit on someone else’s earnest attempts to help others in desperate need.


I'm not trying to "shit on" anyone, and you don't have to claim to be an expert in a field to be a dilettante.

I have repeatedly stressed that I believe Elon Musk had a genuine desire to help. However, launching verbal attacks on those leading the rescue efforts and offending other individuals who made real progress in rescuing those boys and their teacher is not the best way to do that.

 

Offline Dubbie

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Re: Elon Musk can stick his submarine where it hurts
« Reply #57 on: July 15, 2018, 10:19:47 am »

Well before the rescue was successfully carried out, media all over the world carried diagrams of the cave system illustrating that sections of the access route included a tight right-angle bend and a section which was only 15" in diameter, where divers had to remove their air bottles in order to squeeze through. In addition, visibility was effectively zero, so divers had to feel their way forward. The likelihood of a mini-submarine being useful was infinitesimally small.

Wow! With your expert analysis of newspaper infographics and eye for detail, you’ve spotted some crucial flaws is the plan that nobody else noticed!

 If you really think these issues weren’t number one considerations, I don’t know what to tell you.
 

Online rolycat

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Re: Elon Musk can stick his submarine where it hurts
« Reply #58 on: July 15, 2018, 10:41:47 am »

Well before the rescue was successfully carried out, media all over the world carried diagrams of the cave system illustrating that sections of the access route included a tight right-angle bend and a section which was only 15" in diameter, where divers had to remove their air bottles in order to squeeze through. In addition, visibility was effectively zero, so divers had to feel their way forward. The likelihood of a mini-submarine being useful was infinitesimally small.

Wow! With your expert analysis of newspaper infographics and eye for detail, you’ve spotted some crucial flaws is the plan that nobody else noticed!

 If you really think these issues weren’t number one considerations, I don’t know what to tell you.

You evidently feel that sarcasm and ad hominem attacks are the best way to progress the debate. Although I would be fascinated to hear how Mr Musk proposed to pilot a submarine through such apparently intractable hazards, I think I will enjoy the Sunday summer sunshine instead. Goodbye.
 

Offline wraper

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Re: Elon Musk can stick his submarine where it hurts
« Reply #59 on: July 15, 2018, 10:42:21 am »
I have repeatedly stressed that I believe Elon Musk had a genuine desire to help. However, launching verbal attacks on those leading the rescue efforts and offending other individuals who made real progress in rescuing those boys and their teacher is not the best way to do that.
If you read actual tweet, there was no verbal attack to begin with. It's twisted reporting by media. Also media misreported what Thai official said.
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1016684366083190785?lang=en
« Last Edit: July 15, 2018, 10:49:26 am by wraper »
 
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Offline chris_leyson

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Re: Elon Musk can stick his submarine where it hurts
« Reply #60 on: July 15, 2018, 10:59:36 am »
Anyway, back to electronics, I want to know if the Heyphones were used and how well did they work. It all started with the Molefone in the 1970's followed by the Heyphone, the micro-Heyphone and now the much improved System Nicola Mk3. All use 87kHz SSB. Some information on Nicola Mk3 from Speleonics http://caves.org/section/commelect/drupal/files/Speleonics/splncs28.pdf Therfe is a ton of history and background information in the CREG Jounal Archive most of which is published in David Gibsons book "Cave Radiolocation" http://www.lulu.com/shop/david-gibson/cave-radiolocation/paperback/product-11253082.html
System Nicola Mk3 has an all digital SDR "back end" and is designed to work from 2 to 150kHz. It's all designed and built by volunteers.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2018, 11:13:17 am by chris_leyson »
 

Offline GeorgeOfTheJungle

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Re: Elon Musk can stick his submarine where it hurts
« Reply #61 on: July 15, 2018, 11:28:36 am »
How sad, thai's have shown no love for Musk's latest contraption. But luckily not everything is lost  >:D

https://twitter.com/prplppltweeter/status/1016831317953036288
« Last Edit: July 15, 2018, 11:30:52 am by GeorgeOfTheJungle »
git diff *
 

Offline SparkyFX

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Re: Elon Musk can stick his submarine where it hurts
« Reply #62 on: July 15, 2018, 01:51:30 pm »
Well, this was about a disaster, after all. Many companies delivered help and equipment, from pumps to radios and diving equipment.
It is easy to argue about all that in hindsight what would have been better - unfortunately there is never an ideal disaster to which ideal solutions exist.

If you know a situation on site, this is often drastically different from what people have in mind when thinking about problems. Informations are always sparse at the beginning and need to be worked out over time. This is not a question of conviction or enforcing a certain "patent solution". Instead of reducing this question on personalities, check your own imagination against some information: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/07/06/world/asia/thai-cave-rescue.html

I guess the people that care least about insults and statements are the ones really involved... this was about saving 13 lifes and all have been rescued. If that result does not dwarf these opinions, what else does.
Support your local planet.
 

Offline dmills

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Re: Elon Musk can stick his submarine where it hurts
« Reply #63 on: July 15, 2018, 03:51:56 pm »
They collectively did a LOT better then I was expecting having done some of both caving and a little diving back in the day (But never both together!).

I would not have been surprised to have lost one in 5 or so, to get everyone out with the only death being one of the support diving team before the attempt is an utterly remarkable achievement, for all that that death is a tragedy. In fact I would even give the coach credit for the groups survival in the cave, for all that going into that cave at this time of year.... Not the best decision.

Hopefully once the media storm dies down there will be a good write up in one of the usual journals that goes into methods and risk tradeoffs. Sedatives? Yea, likely, seems like given the presence of a medic in the cave it would reduce the risks all round, but who really cares at this point, the important thing is that it worked.

Meanwhile, while all media eyes were on 12 kids and a coach, a tourist boat went down off Thailand will the loss of 50 or so people, and Japan had circa 150 people killed by mudslides and flooding. Amazing how the media loves disasters that play out in slow motion (See also Fukushima and those Peruvian miners). 

Regards, Dan.
 

Offline Raj

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Re: Elon Musk can stick his submarine where it hurts
« Reply #64 on: July 15, 2018, 03:54:18 pm »
Couldn't have rebreathers helped?
 

Offline dmills

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Re: Elon Musk can stick his submarine where it hurts
« Reply #65 on: July 15, 2018, 04:17:46 pm »
Some of the divers were using rebreathers, but they are tricky enough to require significant training, and the common designs use the divers lungs to power the gas loop thru the scrubber and counter lung, so they need a mouthpiece, full face masks wont do it unless you have some other power supply moving the gas.

For these reasons they are more appropriate for the rescue divers then the people being rescued, and even then if you are not very experienced with the kit, this was not the place to learn.

Regards, Dan.
 

Offline jonovid

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Re: Elon Musk can stick his submarine where it hurts
« Reply #66 on: July 15, 2018, 05:27:54 pm »
Musk's latest contraption is better then a science fantasy that will cost more then The Large Hadron Collider for
every 50km of tube or truck!  only to find out a 600km/h straight line for thousands of miles at sea level without running into something! is fantasy.  their still posting videos of this concept.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2018, 05:38:09 pm by jonovid »
Hobby of evil genius      basic knowledge of electronics
 

Offline mtdoc

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Re: Elon Musk can stick his submarine where it hurts
« Reply #67 on: July 15, 2018, 07:37:49 pm »
Musk's latest contraption is better then a science fantasy that will cost more then The Large Hadron Collider for
every 50km of tube or truck!  only to find out a 600km/h straight line for thousands of miles at sea level without running into something! is fantasy.  their still posting videos of this concept.

You're in the wrong thread.  Move along to this thread please.
 

Offline GeorgeOfTheJungle

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Re: Elon Musk can stick his submarine where it hurts
« Reply #68 on: July 15, 2018, 08:25:22 pm »
This is Elon's submarine, Elon's submarine:



« Last Edit: July 19, 2018, 10:43:36 am by GeorgeOfTheJungle »
git diff *
 
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Offline mtdoc

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Re: Elon Musk can stick his submarine where it hurts
« Reply #69 on: July 15, 2018, 08:49:08 pm »
That looks like a very reasonable attempt at a solution to the problem.

In the end they did not need it but good on Musk for making the effort.

As others have mentioned, ketamine would likely be the drug of choice in this situation. It does not suppress respiratory drive and airway protection reflexes remain intact.

The problem is that with ketamine or any sedative drug, there would not be the ability to grasp a normal scuba regulator in the mouth. Musk's submarine would have been one solution.  Does anyone know what they actually did?  Some sort of diving helmet?
« Last Edit: July 15, 2018, 08:53:12 pm by mtdoc »
 

Online langwadt

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Re: Elon Musk can stick his submarine where it hurts
« Reply #70 on: July 15, 2018, 08:54:57 pm »
Elon Musk seem to have totally lost the plot

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DiJ8aAKWAAEXFJv.jpg
 

Offline mtdoc

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Re: Elon Musk can stick his submarine where it hurts
« Reply #71 on: July 15, 2018, 08:58:36 pm »
Elon Musk seem to have totally lost the plot

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DiJ8aAKWAAEXFJv.jpg

 :-//  Nothing remarkable.
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Elon Musk can stick his submarine where it hurts
« Reply #72 on: July 15, 2018, 09:15:57 pm »
You evidently feel that sarcasm and ad hominem attacks are the best way to progress the debate. Although I would be fascinated to hear how Mr Musk proposed to pilot a submarine through such apparently intractable hazards, I think I will enjoy the Sunday summer sunshine instead. Goodbye.
He's right, though. The leader of the dive team with first hand experience with the situation asked Musk to continue development. He obviously saw viability in the plan, or at least nothing pointing to obvious failure. How one can conclude the chance of success is infinitesimally small from halfway across the world and based on a few shreds of second or third hand information filtered by the media is questionable.
 

Offline wraper

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Re: Elon Musk can stick his submarine where it hurts
« Reply #73 on: July 15, 2018, 09:16:01 pm »
In further tweets Elon doubled down on showing vessel in the cave.
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Elon Musk can stick his submarine where it hurts
« Reply #74 on: July 15, 2018, 09:19:32 pm »
Elon Musk seem to have totally lost the plot

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DiJ8aAKWAAEXFJv.jpg
I'd say he shouldn't feed the trolls, but I like that he is seemingly putting his money where his mouth is. It's probably more effective than arguing on Twitter about it.
 
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