Elon Musk is a nice chap

[vad]

Joke of the day. Founder of PayPal complains about unreasonably high fees. There is always a bigger fish, Elon.

https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-63788437

[james_s]

It depends on your age. If you are young, and especially if you are male, the vaccines present real risks, greater than the threat of the disease.

Do you have some data to back that up? I don't know anyone yet that has had complications from the vaccine. I know an alarming number of people that have had complications from the disease, including some as young as early 20s. When an otherwise healthy guy I knew in his early 40s died from Covid that got my attention.

[coppice]

In the middle of the pandemic, during a short-lived "lull", I joined my family for a funeral. 
Most of my relatives at roughly my age remembered the polio vaccination drive in the mid-1950s, and could not understand the change in attitude since then.
At least one of my classmates in high school was an obvious polio victim.

I had a friend at school who survived polio, but walked with great difficulty from then on. Polio was/is an absolutely devastating disease. Still, there was a long, slow and careful rollout of vaccines for it. Nothing was rushed to market, even when parents were really fearful of their children ending up in an iron lung or a grave. It was a long time before it was rolled out in mass, although they were still experimenting with it when they did. My first doe was injected. By my second does hey had found the vaccine could be administered orally, and would get into the system without being broken down in the stomache. However, they hadn't yet prepared tablets for it. So the doctor measured out a portion in a syringe. squirted it onto a sugar cube, and we ate the cube. I guess that testing to find the simplest form of administering the vaccine had not been the highest priority until really thorough testing had been completed.

[vad]

It depends on your age. If you are young, and especially if you are male, the vaccines present real risks, greater than the threat of the disease.

Do you have some data to back that up? I don't know anyone yet that has had complications from the vaccine. I know an alarming number of people that have had complications from the disease, including some as young as early 20s. When an otherwise healthy guy I knew in his early 40s died from Covid that got my attention.

Same here. I don’t know anyone who had to be hospitalized or died from vaccine. On the other hand, I have a family member who refused to get vaccinated, and died from Covid.

[EEVblog]

The vaccine talk ends now. Thanks.

EDIT: I just removed a new vaccine related post. Please do not discuss this and derail the thread any further.

[wraper]

Joke of the day. Founder of PayPal complains about unreasonably high fees. There is always a bigger fish, Elon.

https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-63788437

Compared to Apple app store, Paypal fees are totally reasonable. You also need to take credit/debit card fees into account which are often more than half of what Paypal takes. If you send money from Paypal balance as "friends and family", then the fee is very low as in that case paypal does not offer protection and they dont need to pay payment card fee. But it's not really relevant to Elon since he sold his stake in paypal 20 years ago. Apple slaps 30% fee on app purchases and in-app transactions and does not allow even a slightest mention in the app you are able to pay eslewhere. Google play is similar, however there is a big difference. You can install apps manually without a store.

[tom66]

Elon really is discovering how hard it is to run a social network.

[Zero999]

Twitter have removed their COVID misinformation censorship.

Here's Vinay Prasad's (a medical doctor) video about why this is a good thing.


For those who don't have time to watch, here are some mental notes I've made. The bits about the jab and masks are omitted. Watch it if you're interested.

• Twitter aren't qualified to distinguish fact from misinformation and no one can really.
• It's better to allow free exchange of ideas so people can decide for themselves.
• Even many scientists aren't probably taught how science works. They don't know about randomisation and are prone to biases.
• COVID misinformation was always allowed on Twitter, as long as it was on the side of fear mongering an paranoia, pushed by those on the political left. Those on the right were the ones who were censored. By the way Vinay is left of centre.

[coppice]

• Twitter aren't qualified to distinguish fact from misinformation and no one can really.

This sums up the current problem with public discourse in a nutshell. There are no "fact checkers" or "disinformation checkers". There are only authoritarians trying to silence those they disagree with.

[SiliconWizard]

• Twitter aren't qualified to distinguish fact from misinformation and no one can really.

This sums up the current problem with public discourse in a nutshell. There are no "fact checkers" or "disinformation checkers". There are only authoritarians trying to silence those they disagree with.

Of course. "We own the science and we want people to know about it."

[Buriedcode]

Twitter have removed their COVID misinformation censorship.

And Elon wonders why advertisers are pulling out? Sounds like twitter will go the same way Parler did when it was first released - a haven for racists, grifters, and batshit conspiracy theorists.

Here's Vinay Prasad's (a medical doctor) video about why this is a good thing.


For those who don't have time to watch, here are some mental notes I've made. The bits about the jab and masks are omitted. Watch it if you're interested.

a) pretty sure that falls under "vaccine" related stuff which Dave as mentioned.
b) Yes, Vinay Prasad is a "medical doctor", and has found he makes more money pandering to Libertarians.  And whilst youtube videos aren't evidence of anything (just as blogs aren't):
    https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/vinay-prasad-public-healths-mistruth-problem/

• Twitter aren't qualified to distinguish fact from misinformation and no one can really.

So, he is saying that there are no objective facts and no-one should ever claim that anything is wrong ever? Wow, so we should just abandon Engineering and Science?

• It's better to allow free exchange of ideas so people can decide for themselves.

Yeah, we have seen how that turns out. Just look at 4chan.

• Even many scientists aren't probably taught how science works. They don't know about randomisation and are prone to biases.

Depends on the Scientist and their particular field.  Medical doctors, surgeons etc.. aren't necessarily qualified to interpret study results and the statistical anaylses used.
What about Geologists?  Can they design a three arm study on dietary habits? They're "Scientists" aren't they?!
Just because someone is a top surgeon, doesn't mean to say they have any idea of how to reduce bias, how to design a decent study, or are immune from their own prejudices.
Scientists/specialists commenting on matters outside their field doesn't have the same authority does it. He can have his opinion sure, but why is it worth more than my GP's?
Or, you know, the majority of epidemiologists?

• COVID misinformation was always allowed on Twitter, as long as it was on the side of fear mongering an paranoia, pushed by those on the political left. Those on the right were the ones who were censored.

Really? An electronics forum and you're going to continue to bang on about left and right and how you've victimised.   The "ones who were censored" weren't censored based where they are on the political spectrum, but rather because they posted information that was easily proven to be incorrect (which both sides of the spectrum did btw) and could put people in danger.  Also, having posts removed, on twitter - social media - which is a private company - that you agree to the terms of using by posting - isn't being censored, it is violating the terms. It is a free service, from a private company, not a right.

Vinay Prasad is hardly being censored or cancelled - just google him to see how many articles he's had published in the media.  If anything, twitter flagging any posts he made has boosted his media presence, allowed him to cry victim so he can give more talks and articles, and provided him with more income.  This is why he's taking this stance, money.

• By the way Vinay is left of centre.

What does that have to do with anything in this thread? Also lol, no he isn't.

[coppice]

Twitter have removed their COVID misinformation censorship.

And Elon wonders why advertisers are pulling out? Sounds like twitter will go the same way Parler did when it was first released - a haven for racists, grifters, and batshit conspiracy theorists.

So, no change there then. He is doing something about the paedophiles, though.

[tom66]

• Twitter aren't qualified to distinguish fact from misinformation and no one can really.

This sums up the current problem with public discourse in a nutshell. There are no "fact checkers" or "disinformation checkers". There are only authoritarians trying to silence those they disagree with.

But it's equally a problem with social media, there's no way you can prevent misinformation spreading, like the 5G-causes-COVID bullshit (which in the UK led to a number of cell towers being destroyed and assaults on telecoms workers (1)(2)(3))

So how do you allow the free spread of information but prevent the spread of disinformation?

The answer is not to do nothing, because the outcomes of such highly viral (heh) disinformation are extremely toxic.

[Bud]

And Elon wonders why advertisers are pulling out?

So far he does not give a squat about it. Check your facts.

[coppice]

So how do you allow the free spread of information but prevent the spread of disinformation?

You can't. You can only make things worse by sleazy partisan manipulation, and that's what all manipulation ends up being.

The answer is not to do nothing, because the outcomes of such highly viral (heh) disinformation are extremely toxic.

This is utopian thinking. There are no solutions, only trade offs. Its weird to have to say that in an engineering forum. Its the first rule of engineering. Allowing one tribe to silence another is a poor trade off.

[tom66]

So how do you allow the free spread of information but prevent the spread of disinformation?

You can't. You can only make things worse by sleazy partisan manipulation, and that's what all manipulation ends up being.

The answer is not to do nothing, because the outcomes of such highly viral (heh) disinformation are extremely toxic.

This is utopian thinking. There are no solutions, only trade offs. Its weird to have to say that in an engineering forum. Its the first rule of engineering. Allowing one tribe to silence another is a poor trade off.

You can censor things that go against objective fact, though, and pretending that there isn't such a thing as objective fact is farcical.   No one rational believes that 5G causes COVID but that's an example of where the disinformation line lies.  If you don't have any policy on misinfo then you get nutters burning down 5G towers.  Realistically, advertisers won't tolerate their content being shown alongside such dribble, so they'll pull out if platforms do nothing about this.

[Zero999]

Twitter have removed their COVID misinformation censorship.

And Elon wonders why advertisers are pulling out? Sounds like twitter will go the same way Parler did when it was first released - a haven for racists, grifters, and batshit conspiracy theorists.

Here's Vinay Prasad's (a medical doctor) video about why this is a good thing.


For those who don't have time to watch, here are some mental notes I've made. The bits about the jab and masks are omitted. Watch it if you're interested.

a) pretty sure that falls under "vaccine" related stuff which Dave as mentioned.
b) Yes, Vinay Prasad is a "medical doctor", and has found he makes more money pandering to Libertarians.  And whilst youtube videos aren't evidence of anything (just as blogs aren't):
    https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/vinay-prasad-public-healths-mistruth-problem/

• Twitter aren't qualified to distinguish fact from misinformation and no one can really.

So, he is saying that there are no objective facts and no-one should ever claim that anything is wrong ever? Wow, so we should just abandon Engineering and Science?

• It's better to allow free exchange of ideas so people can decide for themselves.

Yeah, we have seen how that turns out. Just look at 4chan.

• Even many scientists aren't probably taught how science works. They don't know about randomisation and are prone to biases.

Depends on the Scientist and their particular field.  Medical doctors, surgeons etc.. aren't necessarily qualified to interpret study results and the statistical anaylses used.
What about Geologists?  Can they design a three arm study on dietary habits? They're "Scientists" aren't they?!
Just because someone is a top surgeon, doesn't mean to say they have any idea of how to reduce bias, how to design a decent study, or are immune from their own prejudices.
Scientists/specialists commenting on matters outside their field doesn't have the same authority does it. He can have his opinion sure, but why is it worth more than my GP's?
Or, you know, the majority of epidemiologists?

• COVID misinformation was always allowed on Twitter, as long as it was on the side of fear mongering an paranoia, pushed by those on the political left. Those on the right were the ones who were censored.

Really? An electronics forum and you're going to continue to bang on about left and right and how you've victimised.   The "ones who were censored" weren't censored based where they are on the political spectrum, but rather because they posted information that was easily proven to be incorrect (which both sides of the spectrum did btw) and could put people in danger.  Also, having posts removed, on twitter - social media - which is a private company - that you agree to the terms of using by posting - isn't being censored, it is violating the terms. It is a free service, from a private company, not a right.

Vinay Prasad is hardly being censored or cancelled - just google him to see how many articles he's had published in the media.  If anything, twitter flagging any posts he made has boosted his media presence, allowed him to cry victim so he can give more talks and articles, and provided him with more income.  This is why he's taking this stance, money.

• By the way Vinay is left of centre.

What does that have to do with anything in this thread? Also lol, no he isn't.

If you watch his videos, you'll find he's a Democrat. He's said that many times before. He questions public health policy, not only that surrounding COVID, but also cancer, so it's no surprise you'll find many hit pieces on him.

What if public health policy is based on misinformation and is putting people in danger? How about all the misinformation exaggerating the risk of the virus? That was pretty harmful and could have lead to needless deaths.

The problem with something new, such as a novel virus, is there are a many unknowns. The only the narrative accepted by the authorities was allowed on Twitter. The fact it's a private company  doesn't wash. It bowed to pressure from the government and implemented censorship to support their narrative. It's a big problem with Big Tech in general. Governments worry about the free flow of information and apply pressure on them, so they voluntarily censor themselves, though fear of more legislation.

So how do you allow the free spread of information but prevent the spread of disinformation?

You can't. You can only make things worse by sleazy partisan manipulation, and that's what all manipulation ends up being.

The answer is not to do nothing, because the outcomes of such highly viral (heh) disinformation are extremely toxic.

This is utopian thinking. There are no solutions, only trade offs. Its weird to have to say that in an engineering forum. Its the first rule of engineering. Allowing one tribe to silence another is a poor trade off.

You can censor things that go against objective fact, though, and pretending that there isn't such a thing as objective fact is farcical.   No one rational believes that 5G causes COVID but that's an example of where the disinformation line lies.  If you don't have any policy on misinfo then you get nutters burning down 5G towers.  Realistically, advertisers won't tolerate their content being shown alongside such dribble, so they'll pull out if platforms do nothing about this.

There are objective facts, but more often than not there are so many unknowns and nuances, it's impossible for a single body to decide what's objectively true and what's not. There have been many times in history, when what was considered to be the objective fact, has later turned out to be false and those who've discovered it have been persecuted. Galileo is a classic example.

[coppice]

So how do you allow the free spread of information but prevent the spread of disinformation?

You can't. You can only make things worse by sleazy partisan manipulation, and that's what all manipulation ends up being.

The answer is not to do nothing, because the outcomes of such highly viral (heh) disinformation are extremely toxic.

This is utopian thinking. There are no solutions, only trade offs. Its weird to have to say that in an engineering forum. Its the first rule of engineering. Allowing one tribe to silence another is a poor trade off.

You can censor things that go against objective fact, though, and pretending that there isn't such a thing as objective fact is farcical.   No one rational believes that 5G causes COVID but that's an example of where the disinformation line lies.  If you don't have any policy on misinfo then you get nutters burning down 5G towers.  Realistically, advertisers won't tolerate their content being shown alongside such dribble, so they'll pull out if platforms do nothing about this.

That used to seem like a reasonable argument, but in an age where people can't agreed on basic meanings of words that were pretty solidly defined a decade ago, even that can't work.

[tom66]

That used to seem like a reasonable argument, but in an age where people can't agreed on basic meanings of words that were pretty solidly defined a decade ago, even that can't work.

It's still a reasonable argument.  And I don't agree that we're in such a world. 

Another reasonable argument is this information is not being censored from the internet.  If someone wants to research "COVID caused by 5G" they can find any number of nutter websites that talk about that.  They can use DuckDuckGo if they are worried about Google censorship.

But, it really won't matter in the end.  Even if Elon wants Twitter to be a free speech bastion, if the advertisers leave, he'll have to apply some moderation.

[Zero999]

So how do you allow the free spread of information but prevent the spread of disinformation?

You can't. You can only make things worse by sleazy partisan manipulation, and that's what all manipulation ends up being.

The answer is not to do nothing, because the outcomes of such highly viral (heh) disinformation are extremely toxic.

This is utopian thinking. There are no solutions, only trade offs. Its weird to have to say that in an engineering forum. Its the first rule of engineering. Allowing one tribe to silence another is a poor trade off.

You can censor things that go against objective fact, though, and pretending that there isn't such a thing as objective fact is farcical.   No one rational believes that 5G causes COVID but that's an example of where the disinformation line lies.  If you don't have any policy on misinfo then you get nutters burning down 5G towers.  Realistically, advertisers won't tolerate their content being shown alongside such dribble, so they'll pull out if platforms do nothing about this.

That used to seem like a reasonable argument, but in an age where people can't agreed on basic meanings of words that were pretty solidly defined a decade ago, even that can't work.

True, especially given many people can no longer define basic words such as man and woman.

At the start of the pandemic, I generally went along with the narrative and public health policy. I would chastise anyone who disagreed with it. Gradually I became ever more cynical, when I looked at the evidence, especially from other countries, who did things differently. Now I don't agree with those crackpot conspiracy theorists, but I can certainly sympathise with them.

Back to the topic: Elon is doing an internal investigation into government involvement in Twitter. It will be interesting to see what he finds. Even if he draws a blank, that still wouldn't rule it out, because it's possible the evidence has been destroyed. I know that sounds like a conspiracy theory, but it wouldn't surprise me.

I doubt all the advertisers will leave, the number of users has increased since he's taken over and Elon plans to mover to other revenue streams, so he's not beholden to their demands.

[tom66]

True, especially given many people can no longer define basic words such as man and woman.

Oh come on, you can't be serious about this crap. 

Man = someone who identifies as male.

Woman = someone who identifies as female.

That's it.  That's literally the definition.

I doubt all the advertisers will leave, the number of users has increased since he's taken over and Elon plans to mover to other revenue streams, so he's not beholden to their demands.

Doubt.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_Facebook_ad_boycotts

What other revenue streams? $8 a month for having a blue tick is definitely not going to be it.  Look at how Facebook/Meta, Google and Snap, Inc. have done with trying to find anything other than advertisements.

[coppice]

True, especially given many people can no longer define basic words such as man and woman.

Oh come on, you can't be serious about this crap. 

Man = someone who identifies as male.

Woman = someone who identifies as female.

That's it.  That's literally the definition.

Not only can people not agree on basic definitions, its now impossible to tell a post that is serious from one that is comedic.

[wraper]

And Elon wonders why advertisers are pulling out? Sounds like twitter will go the same way Parler did when it was first released - a haven for racists, grifters, and batshit conspiracy theorists.

They pulled out as soon as Elon aquired twittter, way before he started changing anythyng.

[wraper]

You can censor things that go against objective fact, though, and pretending that there isn't such a thing as objective fact is farcical.

Hunter Biden laptop was so fake that more than two centuries old New York Post had to be censored in all of social media, including any links posted by users before elections happened. So called "fortifying elections" https://time.com/5936036/secret-2020-election-campaign/ Oh snap, it turned out to be true. And quite likely would overturn election results if was not prevented from spreading.
The problem is that nobody really cares about banning nonsense about established facts which can really be reliably verified without bias. Information which usually get censored is not so clear cut.

Realistically, advertisers won't tolerate their content being shown alongside such dribble, so they'll pull out if platforms do nothing about this.

They tolerated it placed alongside CP material though.

If you don't have any policy on misinfo then you get nutters burning down 5G towers.

Instigating violence and breaking the law will get you banned. Unlike previously when it was fine as long as you were on the "proper" side like ANTIFA.

[Zero999]

True, especially given many people can no longer define basic words such as man and woman.

Oh come on, you can't be serious about this crap. 

Man = someone who identifies as male.

Woman = someone who identifies as female.

That's it.  That's literally the definition.

Identifies as what? How do I know I'm a man and not: a woman, non-binary, fluid, pan gender etc.? What's the objective reality?