General > General Technical Chat
Elon Musk is a nice chap
tom66:
--- Quote from: coppice on November 30, 2022, 07:51:21 pm ---
--- Quote from: tom66 on November 30, 2022, 07:47:43 pm ---So how do you allow the free spread of information but prevent the spread of disinformation?
--- End quote ---
You can't. You can only make things worse by sleazy partisan manipulation, and that's what all manipulation ends up being.
--- Quote from: tom66 on November 30, 2022, 07:47:43 pm ---The answer is not to do nothing, because the outcomes of such highly viral (heh) disinformation are extremely toxic.
--- End quote ---
This is utopian thinking. There are no solutions, only trade offs. Its weird to have to say that in an engineering forum. Its the first rule of engineering. Allowing one tribe to silence another is a poor trade off.
--- End quote ---
You can censor things that go against objective fact, though, and pretending that there isn't such a thing as objective fact is farcical. No one rational believes that 5G causes COVID but that's an example of where the disinformation line lies. If you don't have any policy on misinfo then you get nutters burning down 5G towers. Realistically, advertisers won't tolerate their content being shown alongside such dribble, so they'll pull out if platforms do nothing about this.
Zero999:
--- Quote from: Buriedcode on November 30, 2022, 07:42:50 pm ---
--- Quote from: Zero999 on November 30, 2022, 05:08:59 pm ---Twitter have removed their COVID misinformation censorship.
--- End quote ---
And Elon wonders why advertisers are pulling out? Sounds like twitter will go the same way Parler did when it was first released - a haven for racists, grifters, and batshit conspiracy theorists.
--- Quote from: Zero999 on November 30, 2022, 05:08:59 pm ---Here's Vinay Prasad's (a medical doctor) video about why this is a good thing.
For those who don't have time to watch, here are some mental notes I've made. The bits about the jab and masks are omitted. Watch it if you're interested.
--- End quote ---
a) pretty sure that falls under "vaccine" related stuff which Dave as mentioned.
b) Yes, Vinay Prasad is a "medical doctor", and has found he makes more money pandering to Libertarians. And whilst youtube videos aren't evidence of anything (just as blogs aren't):
https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/vinay-prasad-public-healths-mistruth-problem/
--- Quote from: Zero999 on November 30, 2022, 05:08:59 pm ---
* Twitter aren't qualified to distinguish fact from misinformation and no one can really.
--- End quote ---
So, he is saying that there are no objective facts and no-one should ever claim that anything is wrong ever? Wow, so we should just abandon Engineering and Science?
--- Quote from: Zero999 on November 30, 2022, 05:08:59 pm ---
* It's better to allow free exchange of ideas so people can decide for themselves.
--- End quote ---
Yeah, we have seen how that turns out. Just look at 4chan.
--- Quote from: Zero999 on November 30, 2022, 05:08:59 pm ---
* Even many scientists aren't probably taught how science works. They don't know about randomisation and are prone to biases.
--- End quote ---
Depends on the Scientist and their particular field. Medical doctors, surgeons etc.. aren't necessarily qualified to interpret study results and the statistical anaylses used.
What about Geologists? Can they design a three arm study on dietary habits? They're "Scientists" aren't they?!
Just because someone is a top surgeon, doesn't mean to say they have any idea of how to reduce bias, how to design a decent study, or are immune from their own prejudices.
Scientists/specialists commenting on matters outside their field doesn't have the same authority does it. He can have his opinion sure, but why is it worth more than my GP's?
Or, you know, the majority of epidemiologists?
--- Quote from: Zero999 on November 30, 2022, 05:08:59 pm ---
* COVID misinformation was always allowed on Twitter, as long as it was on the side of fear mongering an paranoia, pushed by those on the political left. Those on the right were the ones who were censored.
--- End quote ---
Really? An electronics forum and you're going to continue to bang on about left and right and how you've victimised. The "ones who were censored" weren't censored based where they are on the political spectrum, but rather because they posted information that was easily proven to be incorrect (which both sides of the spectrum did btw) and could put people in danger. Also, having posts removed, on twitter - social media - which is a private company - that you agree to the terms of using by posting - isn't being censored, it is violating the terms. It is a free service, from a private company, not a right.
Vinay Prasad is hardly being censored or cancelled - just google him to see how many articles he's had published in the media. If anything, twitter flagging any posts he made has boosted his media presence, allowed him to cry victim so he can give more talks and articles, and provided him with more income. This is why he's taking this stance, money.
--- Quote from: Zero999 on November 30, 2022, 05:08:59 pm ---
* By the way Vinay is left of centre.
--- End quote ---
What does that have to do with anything in this thread? Also lol, no he isn't.
--- End quote ---
If you watch his videos, you'll find he's a Democrat. He's said that many times before. He questions public health policy, not only that surrounding COVID, but also cancer, so it's no surprise you'll find many hit pieces on him.
What if public health policy is based on misinformation and is putting people in danger? How about all the misinformation exaggerating the risk of the virus? That was pretty harmful and could have lead to needless deaths.
The problem with something new, such as a novel virus, is there are a many unknowns. The only the narrative accepted by the authorities was allowed on Twitter. The fact it's a private company doesn't wash. It bowed to pressure from the government and implemented censorship to support their narrative. It's a big problem with Big Tech in general. Governments worry about the free flow of information and apply pressure on them, so they voluntarily censor themselves, though fear of more legislation.
--- Quote from: tom66 on November 30, 2022, 07:55:11 pm ---
--- Quote from: coppice on November 30, 2022, 07:51:21 pm ---
--- Quote from: tom66 on November 30, 2022, 07:47:43 pm ---So how do you allow the free spread of information but prevent the spread of disinformation?
--- End quote ---
You can't. You can only make things worse by sleazy partisan manipulation, and that's what all manipulation ends up being.
--- Quote from: tom66 on November 30, 2022, 07:47:43 pm ---The answer is not to do nothing, because the outcomes of such highly viral (heh) disinformation are extremely toxic.
--- End quote ---
This is utopian thinking. There are no solutions, only trade offs. Its weird to have to say that in an engineering forum. Its the first rule of engineering. Allowing one tribe to silence another is a poor trade off.
--- End quote ---
You can censor things that go against objective fact, though, and pretending that there isn't such a thing as objective fact is farcical. No one rational believes that 5G causes COVID but that's an example of where the disinformation line lies. If you don't have any policy on misinfo then you get nutters burning down 5G towers. Realistically, advertisers won't tolerate their content being shown alongside such dribble, so they'll pull out if platforms do nothing about this.
--- End quote ---
There are objective facts, but more often than not there are so many unknowns and nuances, it's impossible for a single body to decide what's objectively true and what's not. There have been many times in history, when what was considered to be the objective fact, has later turned out to be false and those who've discovered it have been persecuted. Galileo is a classic example.
coppice:
--- Quote from: tom66 on November 30, 2022, 07:55:11 pm ---
--- Quote from: coppice on November 30, 2022, 07:51:21 pm ---
--- Quote from: tom66 on November 30, 2022, 07:47:43 pm ---So how do you allow the free spread of information but prevent the spread of disinformation?
--- End quote ---
You can't. You can only make things worse by sleazy partisan manipulation, and that's what all manipulation ends up being.
--- Quote from: tom66 on November 30, 2022, 07:47:43 pm ---The answer is not to do nothing, because the outcomes of such highly viral (heh) disinformation are extremely toxic.
--- End quote ---
This is utopian thinking. There are no solutions, only trade offs. Its weird to have to say that in an engineering forum. Its the first rule of engineering. Allowing one tribe to silence another is a poor trade off.
--- End quote ---
You can censor things that go against objective fact, though, and pretending that there isn't such a thing as objective fact is farcical. No one rational believes that 5G causes COVID but that's an example of where the disinformation line lies. If you don't have any policy on misinfo then you get nutters burning down 5G towers. Realistically, advertisers won't tolerate their content being shown alongside such dribble, so they'll pull out if platforms do nothing about this.
--- End quote ---
That used to seem like a reasonable argument, but in an age where people can't agreed on basic meanings of words that were pretty solidly defined a decade ago, even that can't work.
tom66:
--- Quote from: coppice on November 30, 2022, 08:03:08 pm ---That used to seem like a reasonable argument, but in an age where people can't agreed on basic meanings of words that were pretty solidly defined a decade ago, even that can't work.
--- End quote ---
It's still a reasonable argument. And I don't agree that we're in such a world.
Another reasonable argument is this information is not being censored from the internet. If someone wants to research "COVID caused by 5G" they can find any number of nutter websites that talk about that. They can use DuckDuckGo if they are worried about Google censorship.
But, it really won't matter in the end. Even if Elon wants Twitter to be a free speech bastion, if the advertisers leave, he'll have to apply some moderation.
Zero999:
--- Quote from: coppice on November 30, 2022, 08:03:08 pm ---
--- Quote from: tom66 on November 30, 2022, 07:55:11 pm ---
--- Quote from: coppice on November 30, 2022, 07:51:21 pm ---
--- Quote from: tom66 on November 30, 2022, 07:47:43 pm ---So how do you allow the free spread of information but prevent the spread of disinformation?
--- End quote ---
You can't. You can only make things worse by sleazy partisan manipulation, and that's what all manipulation ends up being.
--- Quote from: tom66 on November 30, 2022, 07:47:43 pm ---The answer is not to do nothing, because the outcomes of such highly viral (heh) disinformation are extremely toxic.
--- End quote ---
This is utopian thinking. There are no solutions, only trade offs. Its weird to have to say that in an engineering forum. Its the first rule of engineering. Allowing one tribe to silence another is a poor trade off.
--- End quote ---
You can censor things that go against objective fact, though, and pretending that there isn't such a thing as objective fact is farcical. No one rational believes that 5G causes COVID but that's an example of where the disinformation line lies. If you don't have any policy on misinfo then you get nutters burning down 5G towers. Realistically, advertisers won't tolerate their content being shown alongside such dribble, so they'll pull out if platforms do nothing about this.
--- End quote ---
That used to seem like a reasonable argument, but in an age where people can't agreed on basic meanings of words that were pretty solidly defined a decade ago, even that can't work.
--- End quote ---
True, especially given many people can no longer define basic words such as man and woman.
At the start of the pandemic, I generally went along with the narrative and public health policy. I would chastise anyone who disagreed with it. Gradually I became ever more cynical, when I looked at the evidence, especially from other countries, who did things differently. Now I don't agree with those crackpot conspiracy theorists, but I can certainly sympathise with them.
Back to the topic: Elon is doing an internal investigation into government involvement in Twitter. It will be interesting to see what he finds. Even if he draws a blank, that still wouldn't rule it out, because it's possible the evidence has been destroyed. I know that sounds like a conspiracy theory, but it wouldn't surprise me.
I doubt all the advertisers will leave, the number of users has increased since he's taken over and Elon plans to mover to other revenue streams, so he's not beholden to their demands.
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