General > General Technical Chat

Elon Musk is a nice chap

<< < (237/312) > >>

TimFox:

--- Quote from: james_s on December 05, 2022, 08:20:54 pm ---
--- Quote from: Zero999 on December 05, 2022, 09:57:40 am ---Twitter was violationg first amendment on behalf of democrats (government is not allowed to impede with free speech).

--- End quote ---


What kind of pressure? What are the consequences if they were to refuse? If they did actually refuse and got punished by the government then I would buy this argument.

--- End quote ---

I don't believe that the First Amendment "Congress shall make no law ... abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press..." has ever been interpreted to require a newspaper to publish all letters to the editor that it receives, or to require publication of anything else (except maybe for retractions required by a libel suit, or similar specific items).

vad:

--- Quote from: wraper on December 05, 2022, 09:43:08 am ---It's you who are confusing something. It would be so be if they did it themselves. But they were doing so while being instructed by members of democratic party.

--- End quote ---
Which is absolutely legal, unless that party member was also a government official.

Do you have evidence that some member of Trump administration, while being Democratic Party member (which would be unusual for Republican administration), was abusing his/her power to pressure Twitter to clamp down on anti-vaxxers during Covid lockdown, or are you just parroting some propaganda from Russia Today news channel?

tom66:

--- Quote from: Zero999 on December 04, 2022, 02:35:22 pm ---Not a long term study. I rest my case.
--- End quote ---

You would make a rubbish lawyer ;).

It's rather difficult to do a long term study ethically.  It would be a bit like comparing giving people cancer treatment versus no cancer treatment for a tumour - it's morally impossible to comprehend such a study.  Also, as far as we know, transgenderism is unique to humans (I can't imagine how you could measure a rabbit's preferred gender.)    This is why, when doing a drug test for a serious illness, it's uncommon to test against a placebo, unless there is no current therapy.  Instead, the drug is tested against the currently best-available alternative.

It's worth noting that gender reassignment has been around since the early 20th century.  There's plenty of evidence for its success and people wanting to undergo these surgeries with positive outcomes.  Denying the surgery has been shown to lead to negative outcomes.  There might be a better drug that solves the problem in a decade, but right now this is what we have.


--- Quote from: Zero999 on December 04, 2022, 02:35:22 pm ---Show me a randomised study, with a 10 year follow-up period. Given the permanence of these treatments it's vitally important to look at the long term prognosis to make good judgements based on the risk vs benefit.
--- End quote ---

I agree, and population studies have been done.  Here's a long term study.  All it can do is compare those who elect, for whatever reason, to not go ahead with treatment.  You can't compare people who've asked for surgery, would otherwise qualify but have been denied it, for instance. 
https://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/doi/10.1176/appi.ajp.2019.19010080

Broadly, it finds that gender reassignment has good outcomes, though hormone treatment on its own may not be sufficient. 


--- Quote from: Zero999 on December 04, 2022, 02:35:22 pm ---Woke ideology is a significant problem in academia and is infecting medicine too. The recently closed Tavistock Clinic was a classic example of this.
--- End quote ---

Sigh.  "Woke ideology".  What do you mean?  If being "woke" means being aware of what others feel rather than having your personal mindset then, fuck, call me a woke asshole, I don't give a shit.   I am tired of "woke" being used to dismiss anything that might go against someone's personal feelings, because facts are far more important than feelings.

Also - Tavistock was more NHS mismanagement than a judgement against GRS/GD. 


--- Quote from: Zero999 on December 04, 2022, 02:35:22 pm ---For mental disorders, surrounding one's perception of their body, treatment generally revolve around self-acceptance, not modifying their body to suit. There's no reason why sex should be any different. Heck, when I suffered from an eating disorder, diet pills probably would have made me feel happier during the short term, but would obviously have harmed me in the long run.
--- End quote ---

I don't know why you would make such a patently wrong comment.  Most mental illnesses require some form of intervening treatment, and even something like anorexia or bulimia requires psychological intervention; you don't simply tell the person to accept their condition.  Part of GD treatment is understanding whether people are happy to exist in their bodies with the minimal amount of intervention of therapy and maybe hormone treatment; surgery is seen as only a final outcome if other processes are not successful.  And, as shocking as it may be to you, different mental illnesses have different treatments, you don't apply the treatment of an eating disorder to that of gender dysphoria.


--- Quote from: Zero999 on December 04, 2022, 02:35:22 pm ---Gender dysphoria isn't always present in trans people. Male to female transitioners often have autogynephilia, sexual arousal, at the seeing themselves as female, hence the hypersexualised portrayal of biological women, by many transwomen. Female to male transistioners are more likely to have other mental health problems such as eating disorders and autism.
--- End quote ---

I have absolutely no idea what your point is.


--- Quote from: Zero999 on December 04, 2022, 02:35:22 pm ---What about women's spaces? Do you really think men won't use the pretence of being trans as a cover to access female spaces? I personally know women who've been assaulted by men claiming to be women, in female toilets. A woman was raped in hospital by a male patient who was placed in a women's ward, because he claimed he was trans. To make matters worse, the police didn't believe her, because the hospital told the police there were no men on the ward.
--- End quote ---

This is undoubtedly a problem at a smaller scale, but I feel that if you're willing to get your dick snipped off so that you can go and harass women in a safe space, then you're pretty dedicated.  The reality is, nothing really stops anyone walking into a woman's toilet or safe space or wherever and assaulting women in there, and they certainly don't need surgery to enable it, if all it takes is makeup and a dress.  Why don't you worry more about the women who are literally abducted and murdered by certain evil men on their way home from a party or whatever?  This is a far bigger concern than safe spaces being invaded by allegedly faking-it trans women.  As for the prison issue, it's very likely transpeople will need to go into independent custody.

I'm not going to argue the transgender issue any more, because personally I have at best a marginal connection to it via a sibling of a friend, as well as a former colleague's now-daughter.  I'm going to continue to accept how someone wants to be addressed, which is where this all came from, and I hope you do so too.  After all, it would really just be a dick move to do anything other than that.

Zero999:

--- Quote from: tom66 on December 05, 2022, 10:14:18 pm ---
--- Quote from: Zero999 on December 04, 2022, 02:35:22 pm ---Not a long term study. I rest my case.
--- End quote ---

You would make a rubbish lawyer ;).

It's rather difficult to do a long term study ethically.  It would be a bit like comparing giving people cancer treatment versus no cancer treatment for a tumour - it's morally impossible to comprehend such a study.  Also, as far as we know, transgenderism is unique to humans (I can't imagine how you could measure a rabbit's preferred gender.)    This is why, when doing a drug test for a serious illness, it's uncommon to test against a placebo, unless there is no current therapy.  Instead, the drug is tested against the currently best-available alternative.

It's worth noting that gender reassignment has been around since the early 20th century.  There's plenty of evidence for its success and people wanting to undergo these surgeries with positive outcomes.  Denying the surgery has been shown to lead to negative outcomes.  There might be a better drug that solves the problem in a decade, but right now this is what we have.
--- End quote ---
No where have I stated that gender reassignment surgery and hormones should not be used ever. The problem is they're now becoming the go to treatments, above talking therapy. My main concern is they're being used to treat children, who'll invariably grow out of it. Adults are a different case and even then, given the permanence of the treatments, it's something which should only be done when other therapies have failed.


--- Quote ---I agree, and population studies have been done.  Here's a long term study.  All it can do is compare those who elect, for whatever reason, to not go ahead with treatment.  You can't compare people who've asked for surgery, would otherwise qualify but have been denied it, for instance. 
https://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/doi/10.1176/appi.ajp.2019.19010080

Broadly, it finds that gender reassignment has good outcomes, though hormone treatment on its own may not be sufficient. 
--- End quote ---
There's no randomisation and control for confounding variables. There will be differences between the two groups in that study. It doesn't support gender reassignment of children, just it worked out for those in the study, who elected to have it. Comparing it to cancer is absurd, because it's nowhere comparable in terms of death rate.


--- Quote ---
--- Quote from: Zero999 on December 04, 2022, 02:35:22 pm ---Woke ideology is a significant problem in academia and is infecting medicine too. The recently closed Tavistock Clinic was a classic example of this.
--- End quote ---

Sigh.  "Woke ideology".  What do you mean?  If being "woke" means being aware of what others feel rather than having your personal mindset then, fuck, call me a woke asshole, I don't give a shit.   I am tired of "woke" being used to dismiss anything that might go against someone's personal feelings, because facts are far more important than feelings.
--- End quote ---
I mean political correctness has infected the field of medicine and it's a bad thing.


--- Quote ---Also - Tavistock was more NHS mismanagement than a judgement against GRS/GD. 


--- Quote from: Zero999 on December 04, 2022, 02:35:22 pm ---For mental disorders, surrounding one's perception of their body, treatment generally revolve around self-acceptance, not modifying their body to suit. There's no reason why sex should be any different. Heck, when I suffered from an eating disorder, diet pills probably would have made me feel happier during the short term, but would obviously have harmed me in the long run.
--- End quote ---

I don't know why you would make such a patently wrong comment.  Most mental illnesses require some form of intervening treatment, and even something like anorexia or bulimia requires psychological intervention; you don't simply tell the person to accept their condition.  Part of GD treatment is understanding whether people are happy to exist in their bodies with the minimal amount of intervention of therapy and maybe hormone treatment; surgery is seen as only a final outcome if other processes are not successful.  And, as shocking as it may be to you, different mental illnesses have different treatments, you don't apply the treatment of an eating disorder to that of gender dysphoria.
--- End quote ---
The problem is there has been a shift away from working on the mind, towards the body, with regards to gender dysphoria. There was such a strong push for affirmation at the Tavistock, clinicians feared questioning whether their patients had gender dysphoria and that might have other mental health conditions. Most worryingly there was an element of homophobia. Many homosexuals were wrongly deemed to be trans, due homophobia and gender stereotypes.


--- Quote ---
--- Quote from: Zero999 on December 04, 2022, 02:35:22 pm ---Gender dysphoria isn't always present in trans people. Male to female transitioners often have autogynephilia, sexual arousal, at the seeing themselves as female, hence the hypersexualised portrayal of biological women, by many transwomen. Female to male transistioners are more likely to have other mental health problems such as eating disorders and autism.
--- End quote ---

I have absolutely no idea what your point is.
--- End quote ---
Then look up autogynephilia.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22005209/


--- Quote ---
--- Quote from: Zero999 on December 04, 2022, 02:35:22 pm ---What about women's spaces? Do you really think men won't use the pretence of being trans as a cover to access female spaces? I personally know women who've been assaulted by men claiming to be women, in female toilets. A woman was raped in hospital by a male patient who was placed in a women's ward, because he claimed he was trans. To make matters worse, the police didn't believe her, because the hospital told the police there were no men on the ward.
--- End quote ---

This is undoubtedly a problem at a smaller scale, but I feel that if you're willing to get your dick snipped off so that you can go and harass women in a safe space, then you're pretty dedicated.  The reality is, nothing really stops anyone walking into a woman's toilet or safe space or wherever and assaulting women in there, and they certainly don't need surgery to enable it, if all it takes is makeup and a dress.  Why don't you worry more about the women who are literally abducted and murdered by certain evil men on their way home from a party or whatever?  This is a far bigger concern than safe spaces being invaded by allegedly faking-it trans women.  As for the prison issue, it's very likely transpeople will need to go into independent custody.
--- End quote ---
Plenty of males are unwilling to have bottom surgery, yet still want to be treated as women, along with access to female only spaces. In the past, it would have been sociallly unacceptable for a man dressed as a woman to go into the women's toilets. The danger is there is a push for it to become socially acceptable. Women's safety is a genuine concern and we shouldn't add another possible route for bad men to be able to abuse women.


--- Quote ---I'm not going to argue the transgender issue any more, because personally I have at best a marginal connection to it via a sibling of a friend, as well as a former colleague's now-daughter.  I'm going to continue to accept how someone wants to be addressed, which is where this all came from, and I hope you do so too.  After all, it would really just be a dick move to do anything other than that.
--- End quote ---
I hope a close female friend, relative or lover are never abused by a man pretending to be a woman. You might change your position then.

You've nicely illustrated why being woke is bad because it means you won't debate something you find upsetting.

Zero999:

--- Quote from: james_s on December 05, 2022, 08:20:54 pm ---
--- Quote from: Zero999 on December 05, 2022, 09:57:40 am ---Twitter was violationg first amendment on behalf of democrats (government is not allowed to impede with free speech).

--- End quote ---


What kind of pressure? What are the consequences if they were to refuse? If they did actually refuse and got punished by the government then I would buy this argument.

--- End quote ---
https://www.city-journal.org/did-the-government-pressure-twitter-to-curtail-speech
https://www.wsj.com/articles/twitter-becomes-a-tool-of-government-censors-alex-berenson-twitter-facebook-ban-covid-misinformation-first-amendment-psaki-murthy-section-230-antitrust-11660732095

Navigation

[0] Message Index

[#] Next page

[*] Previous page

There was an error while thanking
Thanking...
Go to full version
Powered by SMFPacks Advanced Attachments Uploader Mod