General > General Technical Chat
Elon Musk is a nice chap
Zero999:
--- Quote from: tooki on December 06, 2022, 12:57:44 am ---
--- Quote from: Zero999 on December 05, 2022, 11:08:30 pm ---No where have I stated that gender reassignment surgery and hormones should not be used ever. The problem is they're now becoming the go to treatments, above talking therapy. My main concern is they're being used to treat children, who'll invariably grow out of it. Adults are a different case and even then, given the permanence of the treatments, it's something which should only be done when other therapies have failed.
--- End quote ---
That's the BS that conservative, anti-trans media CLAIM is the case, when in fact it is not. I've known multiple trans people, and read or watched many more stories, and in ALL cases, gender reassignment surgery came after extensive psychiatric care, and years of living as the desired gender. It is in no way something that gets done on a whim!!!
--- Quote from: Zero999 on December 05, 2022, 11:08:30 pm ---My main concern is they're being used to treat children, who'll invariably grow out of it.
--- End quote ---
Gender reassignment surgery on minors is extremely rare.
As for hormones, what's done in kids who are seriously questioning their gender is to use puberty blockers (similar to hormonal treatments used for various growth disorders, by the way) to delay puberty, precisely because children are too young to make such permanent decisions. It allows, without any serious repercussions, delaying decisions until they're old enough to have the necessary maturity, while at the same time preventing physiological changes that make a future transition much more difficult. (The point is that if they delay puberty and the kid ends up realizing they're not trans, then little harm is done by the puberty blockers once discontinued: puberty still happens, into their original biological sex.)
--- Quote from: Zero999 on December 05, 2022, 11:08:30 pm ---who'll invariably grow out of it.
--- End quote ---
Invariably? Then how come transgender adults exist?
I say this with the utmost respect and non-sarcasm: please, please, get to know some actual transgender people and listen to their stories. I feel that you are wildly uninformed and as a result, kinda judgmental and dismissive. Listen to them. And don't just focus on the handful that regret their transitions. The vast majority do not, and consider it a life-saving intervention.
--- End quote ---
It might have been the case in the past gender reassignment surgery was only conducted after a extensive psychiatric care, but there's been a recent shift towards affirmation, without question. It has been carried out on children. Look up the Tavistock clinic, which has recently been closed down for this. There are an increasing number of detransitioners who'll tell you the only thing offered to them was drugs and surgery. I truly hope these are a tiny percentage, but the current trend is worrying.
Puberty blockers for affirmation is a completely different use case, than to treat growth disorders. They are not reservable. A serious problem is they retard brain development, which naturally occurs during puberty, so an 18 year old who's been on them for many years, will not have the same mental capacity as they would have, had they been allowed to go through puberty naturally. In many cases people with gender dysphoria do grow out of it and whilst puberty blockers may provide a temporary relief to anxiety, there's no proof of their efficacy in the long term.
It's concerning gender dysphoria has gone up by an order of magnitude recent years. Many adolescent females with gender dysphoria often have autism, in many cases for male to female, it's autogynephilia. It's increasing in both sexes, but more so in females, quite likely due to social contagion.
The problem I have is, it's increasingly being promoted and quite often the rights of autogynephilic men such as Dylan Mulvaney (I won't call him trans, look up his days of girlhood and make up your own mind) are being promoted over that of women and if you question it, you're transphobic.
I do know of real transgender people, they do exist. It isn't easy for them, but many of the activists appear to be doing them more harm than good. Granted I probably do come across as far-right, but I don't wish anyone any harm. I can see many problems this ideology is inflicting on society. Please look at it from the other side.
--- Quote from: james_s on December 06, 2022, 01:01:50 am ---
--- Quote from: tom66 on December 05, 2022, 10:14:18 pm ---I'm not going to argue the transgender issue any more, because personally I have at best a marginal connection to it via a sibling of a friend, as well as a former colleague's now-daughter. I'm going to continue to accept how someone wants to be addressed, which is where this all came from, and I hope you do so too. After all, it would really just be a dick move to do anything other than that.
--- End quote ---
I have a transgender friend, F to M, I accept how he wants to be addressed although it took a while to get used to but that isn't really the issue, in the back of my mind I know he is actually female, a trans-man, not an actual man. As a friend it doesn't matter, the gender of my platonic friends is irrelevant. I think in general most men don't really care if a woman sees them in a locker room or whatever but I can totally understand why a woman would not be comfortable having a biological man in that sort of space with them.
Anyway the whole debate that is raging about this stuff goes far beyond how someone wants to be addressed. I'm happy to use male or female pronouns, whichever they prefer, and I'm happy to treat them with the same respect I'd treat anyone, but I'm not going to believe that they are actually literally their preferred sex, to do that is to deny reality, which they are free to do themselves, but it is unreasonable to expect everyone else to also.
--- End quote ---
I mostly agree with this.
Regarding pronouns: I consider it to be lying and I'm very bad at that. It makes me uncomfortable, but I accept in many cases it's right to tell white lies. If they vaguely pass for opposite sex, I could probably do it, otherwise I doubt it's even possible for me to do it reliably. I have no filter and will say the wrong thing at the best of times.
RJSV:
I've hung out with San Francisco gay men and women, being in the locale, of Berkeley, Oakland and SF. Asked for jobs, attended business meetings. No problem.
Some of the younger gay men had past problems, been abused in such and such small town in middle America. Many faced certain death, and soon (aids in 1980's).
Was a bit shocked, when one the local gay SF political leaders, business man, switched to Republican, when ran for office, (he was my boss, basically).
But, heck, I was into my own thing, working near the SF downtown, with famous landmarks everywhere. High-rise apartments, ocean air, and plenty of modern straight women to approach...
Thing is, these days, I feel a lot more confronted, or 'dared' to oppose this or that 'Street Mural', or elementary school 'fashion' show. No, I'm not a public activist or anything...
But some of them are.
Local paper is full of ' letters to the editor', with two sides in full FLAME word war. The sexual freedom activists far far exceed the other side, in rudeness and accusations:
"You are attacking our Mural ".
"No one is advocating puberty blockers", even to the degree of using the 'nazi' lable, in the critic's, who, by the way, never really objected to any freeway walk 'mural'.
Older gay folks would, probably, be as shocked as me, it's called a 'railroad job', and no choice, or else.
The newspaper letter FLAME wars would shock Dave Jones, even !
Embarrassing.
Zero999:
--- Quote from: RJHayward on December 06, 2022, 10:08:01 pm --- I've hung out with San Francisco gay men and women, being in the locale, of Berkeley, Oakland and SF. Asked for jobs, attended business meetings. No problem.
Some of the younger gay men had past problems, been abused in such and such small town in middle America. Many faced certain death, and soon (aids in 1980's).
Was a bit shocked, when one the local gay SF political leaders, business man, switched to Republican, when ran for office, (he was my boss, basically).
But, heck, I was into my own thing, working near the SF downtown, with famous landmarks everywhere. High-rise apartments, ocean air, and plenty of modern straight women to approach...
Thing is, these days, I feel a lot more confronted, or 'dared' to oppose this or that 'Street Mural', or elementary school 'fashion' show. No, I'm not a public activist or anything...
But some of them are.
Local paper is full of ' letters to the editor', with two sides in full FLAME word war. The sexual freedom activists far far exceed the other side, in rudeness and accusations:
"You are attacking our Mural ".
"No one is advocating puberty blockers", even to the degree of using the 'nazi' lable, in the critic's, who, by the way, never really objected to any freeway walk 'mural'.
Older gay folks would, probably, be as shocked as me, it's called a 'railroad job', and no choice, or else.
The newspaper letter FLAME wars would shock Dave Jones, even !
Embarrassing.
--- End quote ---
You appear to be conflating homosexuality with transgenderism, which are two different things. Being homosexual is simply being attracted to the same sex. Transgender is wishing to be the opposite sex, or none at all, in some cases. Some have the feeling they were born in the wrong body, but it can also be triggered by another mental health problem.
Anyway, it is getting a bit off topic. I'm glad Elon has removed the silly bans on dead-naming (this is when you refer to someone who's changed their name, from a boy's to girl's name or vice versa, by their birth name) and not using a person's preferred pronouns i.e. calling them a she, when they want to be referred to as he. I used to get teased at college because I'm uncoordinated and can't throw straight. I'd get called a poof, girl, tart and was often referred to as she and her. It did upset me at the start, but after awhile it didn't bother me. People only say those sorts of things to get a rise. Too many people have a resilience problem these days.
james_s:
--- Quote from: Zero999 on December 06, 2022, 07:53:30 pm ---I mostly agree with this.
Regarding pronouns: I consider it to be lying and I'm very bad at that. It makes me uncomfortable, but I accept in many cases it's right to tell white lies. If they vaguely pass for opposite sex, I could probably do it, otherwise I doubt it's even possible for me to do it reliably. I have no filter and will say the wrong thing at the best of times.
--- End quote ---
It doesn't seem like that big of a deal, although I can't stand the people that get irate if you "misgender" them, I mean ok if it's a malicious and repeated action sure, but just a casual interaction? I can't read anyone's mind so I take the best guess, and I tend to call people "dude" regardless of gender. Overall I just really don't care much about identity, if somebody addressed me by the wrong pronouns I'm not sure I'd care enough to bother correcting them, again unless it was a repeated malicious attempt to insult.
What I won't do is use the various made up pronouns that have appeared recently. It's hard enough for me to keep track of names, let alone custom pronouns. You are "he" or "she", just pick one for the sake of convenience, it doesn't have to describe your entire personal identity.
james_s:
--- Quote from: Zero999 on December 06, 2022, 10:30:23 pm ---Anyway, it is getting a bit off topic. I'm glad Elon has removed the silly bans on dead-naming (this is when you refer to someone who's changed their name, from a boy's to girl's name or vice versa, by their birth name) and not using a person's preferred pronouns i.e. calling them a she, when they want to be referred to as he. I used to get teased at college because I'm uncoordinated and can't throw straight. I'd get called a poof, girl, tart and was often referred to as she and her. It did upset me at the start, but after awhile it didn't bother me. People only say those sorts of things to get a rise. Too many people have a resilience problem these days.
--- End quote ---
I've had people get upset a few times when I've referred to the past tense. For example if someone used to be male and is now female and I refer to something that happened in the past back when they were male, I'll refer to them as "he" and use their birth name in that context. That's who they were at the time the incident took place, the fact that they now identify as something else doesn't retroactively go back and change the past.
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