Elon Musk is a nice chap

[james_s]

It's abusing a system to stalk someone.
Yes, anyone could find the info, but that doesn't mean its ok to process the info and use it for this sort of purpose.

It's like the old phone books that were in order of last name and initials and if you looked up someone name in the book you could find their phone number and address.
But it was illegal to use the info to make a new book reordered by phone number to locate an address and name from a phone number.

It should be illegal to use flight tracking data to create a system to enable stalking someone in realtime.

Elon has said that its the real time aspect that he has an issue with.

Why should that be illegal? It doesn't enable tracking of a person, it enables tracking of an aircraft and in the USA at least that is publicly available information. Flying a private aircraft is a privilege, you give up a certain amount of privacy to have that privilege. It's not like it's going to be landing in random places around the world anyway typically, it's going to fly back and forth between a few different airports. Seems like a nothing burger.

[james_s]

Just because you can doesn't mean you should.

Have a think about the freedom you have to drive your car down to the store to buy a pack of smokes without the internet reporting all about it. Why were you buying the smokes? What are you going to do with the smokes? You're going to try and secretly start your kids smoking, aren't you?

I'm not a public figure, nobody cares what I'm doing, I'm just not that interesting. My cars have visible license plates on them, they're registered to me, if someone really wanted to track their location they could. At this point they're old enough that they stand out like a sore thumb and people recognize me based on the cars anyway. Who cares? When you're a public figure people get interested. Musk puts himself in the spotlight, he could just as easily be reclusive and mind his own business.

[tom66]

Just because you can doesn't mean you should.

Have a think about the freedom you have to drive your car down to the store to buy a pack of smokes without the internet reporting all about it. Why were you buying the smokes? What are you going to do with the smokes? You're going to try and secretly start your kids smoking, aren't you?

Really, this feels remarkably like the argument over banning disinformation, except sides have been swapped here.  You are saying unlimited freedom of speech is a bad thing now?  Because that's what ElonJet is.

I'm pretty indifferent to the ElonJet situation, I couldn't really care either way where Elon goes or who knows about it, but don't want Covid and other disinfo spread everywhere, because that actively harms everyone.

Also, interesting that the FAA's privacy function doesn't work, huh.  Not sure what the solution is there, then.

[Ed.Kloonk]

I couldn't really care either way where Elon goes or who knows about it.

But isn't that the problem? I wonder if perhaps you should care who knows.

Also, interesting that the FAA's privacy function doesn't work, huh.  Not sure what the solution is there, then.

I wonder if it were any other billionaire (someone less busy), if they would seek to litigate for the lapse of integrity.

[Infraviolet]

Censoring the tracking of his private jet, after buying the company whilst speaking of making free speech his priority is really not a good luck. And censoring journalists who discussed it is an even worse look. Still, he then had the decency to uncensor the journalists after a public outcry, and he's been having other journalists pour through twitter's files from the previous management, some really nasty stuff is coming out about how they tried to silence respectable people like Jay Bhattacharya and how they had hotlines from governments ordering them to take down all manner of inconvenient truths (which were the very opposite of misinformation, although governments happily painted them as misinfo). So I'd say Musk is doing much better than the last twitter management (not that I'd want to spend my time dumping 280 character ultra-compressed posts on to the internet whoever owned twitter), but it is perhaps too soon to make a judegement of whether he is a nice chap.

As for Musk's jet, isn;t it the case that he said he now rents random private jets, so tracking "his jet" isn't very meaningful anyway?

[Ed.Kloonk]

I'm not a public figure, nobody cares what I'm doing, I'm just not that interesting. My cars have visible license plates on them, they're registered to me, if someone really wanted to track their location they could. At this point they're old enough that they stand out like a sore thumb and people recognize me based on the cars anyway. Who cares? When you're a public figure people get interested. Musk puts himself in the spotlight, he could just as easily be reclusive and mind his own business.

 

Mate.

[tom66]

But isn't that the problem? I wonder if perhaps you should care who knows.

Well, it's pretty obvious Elon is bothered, I don't think anyone needs that pointing out.

What isn't obvious is why this is suddenly a problem, when the exact arguments have been made by others, along the lines of "you can't arbitrate over free speech, because who moderates the moderators?"

Who decides whether ElonJet crosses a line?  Is it *obvious*, given what is being done is just the aggregation of public information, in a manner that almost anyone could do with a day of effort?  Well, it was pretty obvious to me that banning accounts telling people the vaccines have microchips in them, is a good idea, but, well apparently it's an unsolvable problem to decide what information is bad and what information is good. 

Unless you're rich enough to buy the company, then you get to decide.

It's hypocrisy to dislike ElonJet and campaign for it to be banned, but not to support other forms of moderation.

[Ed.Kloonk]

As for Musk's jet, isn;t it the case that he said he now rents random private jets, so tracking "his jet" isn't very meaningful anyway?

Perhaps he might be the only grown up in the room who understands that (some) people are nuts with too much information. If what you say is true, and some idiot still follows the elonjet account, acts and mis-targets, whose fault is it?

[Ed.Kloonk]

It's hypocrisy to dislike ElonJet and campaign for it to be banned, but not to support other forms of moderation.

I don't know if I would campaign for it to be banned. A sensible approach, as suggested above, would for the account user to consider having a time delay. Something tells me that's not the game he wants to play.

[tom66]

Replace "vax something or other" with "Trump won the 2020 election" or "5G causes COVID".  Whatever flavour of disinformation you (don't) accept.

I don't want a debate over PMs.  Should be public if it's going to be had.

[Ed.Kloonk]

Replace "vax something or other" with "Trump won the 2020 election" or "5G causes COVID".  Whatever flavour of disinformation you (don't) accept.

I don't want a debate over PMs.  Should be public if it's going to be had.

All good.

Fake moon landing it is...

[Ed.Kloonk]

Replace "vax something or other" with "Trump won the 2020 election" or "5G causes COVID".  Whatever flavour of disinformation you (don't) accept.

I don't want a debate over PMs.  Should be public if it's going to be had.

Sorry I somehow mangled the earlier post and now have to wander out for a few hours. (Hope nobody tweets my destination!)

[RJSV]

Can't stand too much of this ...(but thanks Ed, for being the sane one, here)...
  Gotta 'ban' anything questioning 'election', ..or WHAT ?
...OH,yeah, it's EXISTANTIAL... and gotta ban, ban ban that speech...meanwhile the folks calling out horrors of the questioning (yeah attacks in our very existence)!
We watch, as things, any questions, get thrown on the cart, for burning,...in this MOB.
Meanwhile it's those calling for ban this and that, issue THEIR hate speech...smugly, arrogantly...

[vk6zgo]

Can't stand too much of this ...(but thanks Ed, for being the sane one, here)...
  Gotta 'ban' anything questioning 'election', ..or WHAT ?
...OH,yeah, it's EXISTANTIAL... and gotta ban, ban ban that speech...meanwhile the folks calling out horrors of the questioning (yeah attacks in our very existence)!
We watch, as things, any questions, get thrown on the cart, for burning,...in this MOB.
Meanwhile it's those calling for ban this and that, issue THEIR hate speech...smugly, arrogantly...

R.J. I think you forgot to take your medication!

[RJSV]

I guess I don't know exactly how to refer to the sort of 'Meta-data' or neutral technique, for analyzing communication.  But in this thread, for example, readers might note a bit in the hyper side, with longish, contorted 'arguments' proving this or that point...
   But the point, invariably, turns out to be some stereotyped 'flaw',...of Musk, and therefore, by extension, to the whole social media thing, ...
Which is the ridiculous and seemingly partially successful 'orange man bad' psychosis or derangement.

I skip over much of the neck-straining it takes to follow those ultra-detailed arguments...rolling my eyes when reading, yet again, how some whacko in Cuba claiming 202 election fraud is a threat to my existence ? Or my democracy ? A threat to our very democracy come the cries.
Makes me wanna turn to censorship...but, no, that's just another savage attack of sarcasm.
Others, meeker than I, I'm afraid don't react with as much grace /patience.

Big bad ALEX Jones ain't gonna hurt me

[RJSV]

Vk, you just made my point right there! Thank you.

   All your opponents, are crazy.  That's a pretty lame defense, ...

[AndyBeez]

With regard to Jack Sweeney, Elon Musk, you should hire this kid. Seriously, he's resourceful, driven, belligerent, disruptive and resilient. Remind you of anyone?

Have a think about the freedom you have to drive your car down to the store to buy a pack of smokes without the internet reporting all about it. Why were you buying the smokes? What are you going to do with the smokes? You're going to try and secretly start your kids smoking, aren't you?

So driving your car, how many ANPR cameras did you pass? How many CCTV cameras tracked your walk from the car, through the store and up to the till? Was your smart phone's MAC address recorded by the store's analytic bot for no reason at all? Did the bank run a background check because they now have facial recognition technology built into the cash point? Just how much metadata did you create by paying with your smart phone? Meanwhile, did your car's Satnav dial in to your insurance company to report your eratic breaking? Has the EMS already upgraded the seat heater settings to winter mode because your car was parked in the full sun?

Freedom? Not anymore dude.

[Infraviolet]

The way to "get rid" of crazy disinformation is to simply ensure nothing can be reposted too fast. Make sure people can't share anything they've seen until they've had a few minutes to think over it. Sensible and clam things, however controversial, get through, but crazy talk and bot produced spam only spreads at present because people click to spread it faster than they really read it.

As for AndyBeez's latest post, that sort of ubiquitous surveillance is just the sort of thing which needs eradicating before we end up like China. A key part of that is paying cash, so that if evil crooks know how much money you've taken out from a bank there still isn't enough of a network for them to know precisely what you did with it.

[Ed.Kloonk]

With regard to Jack Sweeney, Elon Musk, you should hire this kid. Seriously, he's resourceful, driven, belligerent, disruptive and resilient. Remind you of anyone?

Have a think about the freedom you have to drive your car down to the store to buy a pack of smokes without the internet reporting all about it. Why were you buying the smokes? What are you going to do with the smokes? You're going to try and secretly start your kids smoking, aren't you?

So driving your car, how many ANPR cameras did you pass? How many CCTV cameras tracked your walk from the car, through the store and up to the till? Was your smart phone's MAC address recorded by the store's analytic bot for no reason at all? Did the bank run a background check because they now have facial recognition technology built into the cash point? Just how much metadata did you create by paying with your smart phone? Meanwhile, did your car's Satnav dial in to your insurance company to report your eratic breaking? Has the EMS already upgraded the seat heater settings to winter mode because your car was parked in the full sun?

Freedom? Not anymore dude.

And the store owner failed to notify my health insurance company that I've taken up smoking.

[PlainName]

It's hypocrisy to dislike ElonJet and campaign for it to be banned, but not to support other forms of moderation.

I don't think it's about banning it but rather about the dork being a malicious stalker. Let's say Musk hires a private eye to follow this chap around and tweet about all the shops he goes to, what he's eating in the cafe, who he meets, etc. All that info is there for anyone to find if they could be arsed, but the PE broadcasting on worldwide media - probably attracting the usual percentage of nutters the send threats and the like - is a bit off, isn't it?

We need to be careful that we blame the shitbags who abuse our data, not the data itself.

[Stray Electron]

It's hypocrisy to dislike ElonJet and campaign for it to be banned, but not to support other forms of moderation.

I don't think it's about banning it but rather about the dork being a malicious stalker. Let's say Musk hires a private eye to follow this chap around and tweet about all the shops he goes to, what he's eating in the cafe, who he meets, etc. All that info is there for anyone to find if they could be arsed, but the PE broadcasting on worldwide media - probably attracting the usual percentage of nutters the send threats and the like - is a bit off, isn't it?

We need to be careful that we blame the shitbags who abuse our data, not the data itself.

    It's not just about the stalking but also the fact that the kid demanded $50,000 from Musk for taking down the Musk Jet webpage.  That's clearly extortion and not just a matter of re-posting some obscure but publicly available information. And even after Musk changed the registration number of his jet, the kid found the new number and updated his webpage. That is clearly STALKING. 

[james_s]

I don't think it's about banning it but rather about the dork being a malicious stalker. Let's say Musk hires a private eye to follow this chap around and tweet about all the shops he goes to, what he's eating in the cafe, who he meets, etc. All that info is there for anyone to find if they could be arsed, but the PE broadcasting on worldwide media - probably attracting the usual percentage of nutters the send threats and the like - is a bit off, isn't it?

We need to be careful that we blame the shitbags who abuse our data, not the data itself.

It's annoying but it's not illegal (in the USA, I don't know about elsewhere). Look at the paparazzi, they're also annoying but there's nothing illegal about following someone around in public and reporting on what they're doing. The courts have ruled previously that there is no expectation to privacy while out in public. A person can follow you around, there are limits to what sort of interacting with you they can do though.

Demanding money to take it down may be unethical but I don't think that's illegal either, he's not obligated to take it down, and he's free to offer to do so for a price. The other person is free to turn down that offer and carry on with their life.

[SiliconWizard]

Privacy is kind of a red line, free speech doesn't imply stepping on privacy. I'm concerned that some people would so easily conflate the two as though it was either one or the other. Uh, no.

[james_s]

And even after Musk changed the registration number of his jet, the kid found the new number and updated his webpage. That is clearly STALKING.

Let's see what the courts say after the kid is arrested, which he will be if there is reason to believe he committed a crime. Personally I don't think this is stalking, there is no threat, he's not personally showing up at Musk's house or anything like that. What is the legal definition of stalking in the USA where this is taking place? You don't have to like it, but that doesn't necessarily make it a crime.

[Ed.Kloonk]

It's annoying but it's not illegal (in the USA, I don't know about elsewhere). Look at the paparazzi, they're also annoying but there's nothing illegal about following someone around in public and reporting on what they're doing. The courts have ruled previously that there is no expectation to privacy while out in public. A person can follow you around, there are limits to what sort of interacting with you they can do though.

Except that there are a number of certain people that does not apply to and are exempt from freely being followed. And if someone did try, they'd be stitched up pretty quickly.

Rules for them..