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| tom66:
The "socialist left" never liked Elon. He is anti-union, anti-worker and really not all that of an environmentalist if you consider his personal footprint. He's done great things for EVs but fought strongly against public transport. As we know, he flies virtually everywhere in a private jet, too. And rockets are cool and all, but if you actually consider the carbon emissions from one F9 launch, I think that probably offsets a few hundred Tesla's each time! The "media pretending to be left" (but are actually just right wing or centrist) love Elon because he is a billionaire, and billionaires own media networks. Arguably they still like him somewhat, even with the Twitter debacle, because he brings in eyeballs. Just like they never really hated Trump, just presented the optics of disliking him, he was fantastic for viewership. You are not really left wing if you support capitalism, like billionaires, being a thing. I am not left wing, even if I am a bit of an environmentalist and favour better social values (as has been extensively discussed.) There is an inherent rejection of capitalism, and the hierarchy it brings, in left wing ideology. Worker owned coops ("market socialism") are about as close as you get to capitalist behaviour in a left wing ideology, but really they are quite far away from it. |
| Zero999:
--- Quote from: tom66 on December 20, 2022, 03:10:45 pm ---The "socialist left" never liked Elon. He is anti-union, anti-worker and really not all that of an environmentalist if you consider his personal footprint. He's done great things for EVs but fought strongly against public transport. As we know, he flies virtually everywhere in a private jet, too. And rockets are cool and all, but if you actually consider the carbon emissions from one F9 launch, I think that probably offsets a few hundred Tesla's each time! The "media pretending to be left" (but are actually just right wing or centrist) love Elon because he is a billionaire, and billionaires own media networks. Arguably they still like him somewhat, even with the Twitter debacle, because he brings in eyeballs. Just like they never really hated Trump, just presented the optics of disliking him, he was fantastic for viewership. You are not really left wing if you support capitalism, like billionaires, being a thing. --- End quote --- There are plenty of rich socialists. --- Quote from: tom66 on December 20, 2022, 03:10:45 pm ---favour better social values (as has been extensively discussed.) --- End quote --- It depends on what you mean by better? I'm also favour better social values. We just disagree on what better social values are. |
| tom66:
--- Quote from: Zero999 on December 20, 2022, 04:18:44 pm ---There are plenty of rich socialists. --- End quote --- I think it's hard to imagine they are genuine socialists then. To be clear, the definition of socialism is to accept a socialist economic model. It is *not* to simply have views that society should be, e.g. more humanist and accepting, but still include capitalism. There are virtually no genuine socialist politicians anywhere near power in any Western democracy. I think the closest you might get are the Greeks having Syriza, but they're gone now. Can't think of any nowadays... but not an expert on European politics. In the UK, we have Labour, which has flirted with democratic socialism (Corbyn, for instance), but they lost an election badly on that end, and the current leadership does not support this ideology. Remember, social democracy (broadly: Blair, Obama, etc.) is different from democratic socialism (which is socialist values & not a dictatorship!) Social democracy embraces capitalism, tries to make it a bit more friendly, but it is fundamentally dependent upon capitalism to survive, and therefore it is not socialism. I would consider my ideology to be in this range. Most genuine socialists hate SD because it enhances and extends capitalism, whereas the goal of socialism is to create a worker-owned economy. The ideologies are just not compatible. |
| Ed.Kloonk:
--- Quote from: tom66 on December 20, 2022, 03:10:45 pm ---The "socialist left" never liked Elon. He is anti-union, anti-worker and really not all that of an environmentalist if you consider his personal footprint. He's done great things for EVs but fought strongly against public transport. As we know, he flies virtually everywhere in a private jet, too. And rockets are cool and all, but if you actually consider the carbon emissions from one F9 launch, I think that probably offsets a few hundred Tesla's each time! The "media pretending to be left" (but are actually just right wing or centrist) love Elon because he is a billionaire, and billionaires own media networks. Arguably they still like him somewhat, even with the Twitter debacle, because he brings in eyeballs. Just like they never really hated Trump, just presented the optics of disliking him, he was fantastic for viewership. You are not really left wing if you support capitalism, like billionaires, being a thing. I am not left wing, even if I am a bit of an environmentalist and favour better social values (as has been extensively discussed.) There is an inherent rejection of capitalism, and the hierarchy it brings, in left wing ideology. Worker owned coops ("market socialism") are about as close as you get to capitalist behaviour in a left wing ideology, but really they are quite far away from it. --- End quote --- What a lot of people forget or perhaps don't want to admit is how Elon was able to produce as close to the utopian dream electric cars, right in the middle of the most anti-capitalist part of the country. It's been said that if they were just plain old ICE cars, there is no way it would have been possible. |
| tom66:
--- Quote from: Ed.Kloonk on December 20, 2022, 07:03:15 pm ---What a lot of people forget or perhaps don't want to admit is how Elon was able to produce as close to the utopian dream electric cars, right in the middle of the most anti-capitalist part of the country. It's been said that if they were just plain old ICE cars, there is no way it would have been possible. --- End quote --- Calling California, the richest state in the Union and one of immense private venture capital and the home of many billionaires, an "anti capitalist" state... If that's not delusional I don't know what is. :-DD |
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