Elon Musk is a nice chap

[coppice]

The reduction in transmission is in line with the reduction of developing symptoms:

What do you mean by that? There appear to have been a large number of asymptomatic cases, and for this particular virus they are just as transmissive as the symptomatic ones.

[tom66]

The reduction in transmission is in line with the reduction of developing symptoms:

What do you mean by that? There appear to have been a large number of asymptomatic cases, and for this particular virus they are just as transmissive as the symptomatic ones.

I mean that if you don't develop symptoms you are much less likely to spread the virus.

The rate of asymptomatic transmission is probably grossly over-estimated by many, including politicians and health experts.   One study put it at around 5% of all transmissions.  We also know that the elderly and obese are much more likely to spread the virus than a general member of the public, this is in part because they tend to breathe more heavily and expel more viral particles.  We also know a large number of infections are driven by so-called superspreaders: individuals which exhibit symptoms and also have higher social connectivity.

[AndyBeez]

The reduction in transmission is in line with the reduction of developing symptoms:

What do you mean by that? There appear to have been a large number of asymptomatic cases, and for this particular virus they are just as transmissive as the symptomatic ones.

So much so the Chinese hold their citizens at gunpoint if just one tests positive because of the potential for asymptomatic transmission across a city. Even if that city is making iPhones for export dollars. The result of these Chinese clampdowns has the potential to destabilise the global banking system, but that's a shitestrom to look forward to in 2023.
Asymptomatic transmission was and still is seriously underestimated. You probably passed a dozen asymptomatics on the street today. Or rode in a bus, tram or train with them. But if you're smart, you'll have had your Covid booster. So no wukkas. Otherwise Antivac Alert

[Zero999]

It's like lining up the children to defend the elderly.

But that's what we do with stuff like pensions. We rely on the children taking care of their elders, and that's how society works. We send off kids to die in wars because they're too young to be parents and have kids themselves. And, of course, they are fitter and more capable, but surely those would be the attributes we would want to use at home rather than spread over some battlefield mud.

That's completely different.

People pay into pensions and get the money back, when they get older.

When I mean children, I mean under 18s. We don't expect them to care for their parents and in the unusual circumstances when they do, they get extra help.

The point was that with medicine we don't insist on people get on medical treatments which solely benefit others. The Hippocratic Oath states firstly, do not harm. It's completely unethical to vaccinate a 12 year old boy, if it might harm him and confers no measurable benefit to him, because it might make it less likely he transmits a disease to his vulnerable parents.

The reduction in transmission is in line with the reduction of developing symptoms:

What do you mean by that? There appear to have been a large number of asymptomatic cases, and for this particular virus they are just as transmissive as the symptomatic ones.

I mean that if you don't develop symptoms you are much less likely to spread the virus.

That's probably true, but I forgot to say that the vaccines were never initially tested for prevention of transmission. It's plausible they did, going by the evidence, but there certainly wasn't enough evidence to make them a condition of employment, go to a restaurant, being able to enter a country etc.

Elon buying Twitter is definitely a good thing. He wants to clamp down on child porn, which wasn't being dealt with properly by the previous owners. People can scream all they want about bad people, being able to use bad words, but those who harm children are the lowest of the low. Targeting them should be the number one priority, not censoring politically incorrect speech.

Then under Twatters new dictator Mr Musk this happens (while reinstalling The Trompet and Alex Jones, or did or did he not is the question?) To be or not to be as Prince Musk.. sorry.. Hamlet said!):  or  you decide.

Firstly you're wrong about Elon being a dictator. The unbanning of Trump and continual ban of Alex Jones were both put to a poll first and the results enacted. Most users wanted Trump unbanned and Alex banned. That's democracy for you.

I watched the first 1:30 minutes of the first video and no, it wasn't obvious to me it was a joke. I've seen people permanently banned for much less than Tweeting "Personally strangle some Palestinians to death with your bear hands.". He definitely did break the rules, which are now being applied more evenly to both sides now. There will always be some bias, just less so than before.

[wraper]

Firstly you're wrong about Elon being a dictator. The unbanning of Trump and continual ban of Alex Jones were both put to a poll first and the results enacted. Most users wanted Trump unbanned and Alex banned. That's democracy for you.

He did not make a poll for Alex Jones, Basically he refused to unban him for personal reasons. That's what he said:

My firstborn child died in my arms. I felt his last heartbeat.

I have no mercy for anyone who would use the deaths of children for gain, politics or fame.

However he made a poll for mass ban amnesty (except especially egregious cases) which was supported by 3/4 of voters, and that should happen next week.
FWIW he should have unbanned Alex Jones to be consistent. His ban had nothing to do with AJ spewing nonsense about school shooting years before. He was banned for insulting CNN reporter.

[Towger]

First court case over being fired for not responding to Musk's email:
RTE news : Senior Irish Twitter exec secures High Court injunction

http://www.rte.ie/news/courts/2022/1125/1338351-twitter-injunction/

[TimFox]

Most employees in the US are "at will", and can be terminated (or can quit) without notice and for arbitrary reasons.
Very few employees have an employment contract that limits either of those rights.
Her case is under Irish law, which is different (I don't know details, but I don't believe Musk cares about those details anyway).
In the US, the only important effect of an arbitrary termination is qualification for unemployment benefits (not available to quitters or those fired for legitimate cause), which eventually affects the employer with higher premiums for unemployment insurance.

[RJSV]

Sitting back a few places from this,
   Alex Jones I barely know about, but he is the Poster Boy, like a big cardboard AJ, for people to 'hate' on.
Yes, it's 'hate speech' turned into an icon;
   A 'Hate Icon', for all the wokes to hiss at, (in synchronous).  I was going to comment, wonder what he thinks, when an 'Alex Jones' caracature cardboard ICON is rolled out, now and then.
   Hate....despise....that's the tactic.  Then turn around and accuse:. 'haters conspiracy pushers...

You get my drift. thanks

[TimFox]

Alex Jones just lost several court cases for defamation.
He claimed many times (with the usual lack of evidence) that the mass shooting at Sandy Hook Elementary School was a hoax and attacked parents of the dead children as liars.
There were 20 students and 6 staff killed in that incident, which occurred on Dec 14, 2012.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandy_Hook_Elementary_School_shooting
Whereupon, his devoted following spewed death threats, etc., against the grieving parents and others.
See the last section ("harassment, etc.") of  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandy_Hook_Elementary_School_shooting_conspiracy_theories
Meanwhile, Mr Jones is carefully sheltering his assets from the court judgments.

I have followed this case due to a coincidence:  In late 2012, after I announced my upcoming retirement, a co-worker asked me about my future plans, and I joked that I would seek work as a grief counselor, since that seemed to be a growth industry with all the shootings.  I flew back home the next morning, and the news at the airport was that shooting.

[tom66]

That's probably true, but I forgot to say that the vaccines were never initially tested for prevention of transmission. It's plausible they did, going by the evidence, but there certainly wasn't enough evidence to make them a condition of employment, go to a restaurant, being able to enter a country etc.

They definitely reduce transmission.  You only need to look at the before and after, and countries which vaccinated later had drops in case load that happened at corresponding dates.

Forcing people to accept the vaccines is problematic.  I much prefer carrot instead of stick.  But I've no problem with a country saying "you need to be vaccinated to enter if you are a foreign national".  That's no different to saying you can't come here without a visa, or with a criminal record.  Countries are entitled to set rights of entry.  I'd also say that for medical professionals, vaccination is pretty close to essential, as they tend to work with the most vulnerable.  General office workers, no, not essential. 

[coppice]

That's probably true, but I forgot to say that the vaccines were never initially tested for prevention of transmission. It's plausible they did, going by the evidence, but there certainly wasn't enough evidence to make them a condition of employment, go to a restaurant, being able to enter a country etc.

They definitely reduce transmission.  You only need to look at the before and after, and countries which vaccinated later had drops in case load that happened at corresponding dates.

Then why are there a number of studies showing no drop in transmission rates? When you look t how the virus and the vaccines behave, its hard to see how they could reduce transmission rates.

Forcing people to accept the vaccines is problematic.

Forcing people to accept any medical treatment is against the Nuremberg code. That code was originally about medical experiments on humans, but isn't limited to experiments.

[vk6zgo]

That's probably true, but I forgot to say that the vaccines were never initially tested for prevention of transmission. It's plausible they did, going by the evidence, but there certainly wasn't enough evidence to make them a condition of employment, go to a restaurant, being able to enter a country etc.

They definitely reduce transmission.  You only need to look at the before and after, and countries which vaccinated later had drops in case load that happened at corresponding dates.

Forcing people to accept the vaccines is problematic.  I much prefer carrot instead of stick.  But I've no problem with a country saying "you need to be vaccinated to enter if you are a foreign national".  That's no different to saying you can't come here without a visa, or with a criminal record.  Countries are entitled to set rights of entry.  I'd also say that for medical professionals, vaccination is pretty close to essential, as they tend to work with the most vulnerable.  General office workers, no, not essential.

For many years, you couldn't travel overseas without an "International Certificate of Vaccination".
These commonly required vaccination against Cholera, Yellow Fever, Typhus, & Smallpox.

We didn't wail & scream, & set up protest marches about it, we just did it, & went on with our lives, as it was "the the law of the land" for just about every land on Earth!
The long "Interregnung" between pandemics lulled us into security, & the requirement was scrapped, but Covid 19 brought us back to the real world with a thump!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Certificate_of_Vaccination_or_Prophylaxis

[coppice]

That's probably true, but I forgot to say that the vaccines were never initially tested for prevention of transmission. It's plausible they did, going by the evidence, but there certainly wasn't enough evidence to make them a condition of employment, go to a restaurant, being able to enter a country etc.

They definitely reduce transmission.  You only need to look at the before and after, and countries which vaccinated later had drops in case load that happened at corresponding dates.

Forcing people to accept the vaccines is problematic.  I much prefer carrot instead of stick.  But I've no problem with a country saying "you need to be vaccinated to enter if you are a foreign national".  That's no different to saying you can't come here without a visa, or with a criminal record.  Countries are entitled to set rights of entry.  I'd also say that for medical professionals, vaccination is pretty close to essential, as they tend to work with the most vulnerable.  General office workers, no, not essential.

For many years, you couldn't travel overseas without an "International Certificate of Vaccination".
These commonly required vaccination against Cholera, Yellow Fever, Typhus, & Smallpox.

We didn't wail & scream, & set up protest marches about it, we just did it, & went on with our lives, as it was "the the law of the land" for just about every land on Earth!
The long "Interregnung" between pandemics lulled us into security, & the requirement was scrapped, but Covid 19 brought us back to the real world with a thump!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Certificate_of_Vaccination_or_Prophylaxis

There have been some very strange policies about people entering countries and vaccinations. Before COVID there was basically no restriction on people coming to the UK for short stays, but to get a student study visa many people needed to certify that they were free of certains diseases, like TB. So, it was OK to come to the UK and infect people as long as you didn't stick around for a while.

[james_s]

Forcing people to accept any medical treatment is against the Nuremberg code. That code was originally about medical experiments on humans, but isn't limited to experiments.

It's not a medical treatment, it's a vaccine, and vaccines have been required under at least some circumstances for decades. I was required to be vaccinated against several childhood illnesses in order to attend public school. I knew people that went on vacations to some kind of exotic locations and were required to get vaccines in order to go there, that was in the 80s or 90s. I do not recall a encountering a single person that was anti-vax until that fraudulent study involving only *12* children that claimed a link to autism. As I recall, Andrew Wakefield had a vested interest in a competing vaccine and of course nobody was ever able to duplicate his results, but people took that and ran with it anyway, and the spokesperson of the movement is a former Playboy model with absolutely no medical or scientific background. The whole thing is completely stupid, vaccines work, period. Vaccines do not cause autism, period. There is no evidence that they do, none at all, it was a fraud.

[RJSV]

These arguments against AJ being a fabricated ICON symbol for hate speech have holes a mile wide.
First of all Alex Jones, according to court results, IS a bit of a flakey...but by the rules of logical deduction, that's no proof that smears and exaggerations don't serve a twisted purpose...They do serve a purpose, and my deduction is:
   Purpose: associate the dude with Trump.  Pile on a bunch of old crusty SMEARs and 'Trumps likeness' gets a redo...meaning that AJ is an old story, now rejuvenated to prove how all theories (of opponent), BAD...
Sure, I believe the court cases for slander likely are legitimate.
   Oh, and the COVID thingy. Recent contradictory post, there;   The U.S official COVID rates kept going...Up and UP and UP, as vaccine rates climbed.  That's not what got stated, up a couple posts back.
   I'm tired, mentally, of suppressing every last lie, smear, half-truth.
  Just hatem if you want.  I hate the discuises you employ to make your point.  That's your hate speech.
   I'm more interested in arguing Engineering / Science, not some Jr. High School level smear jobs.

[vk6zgo]

These arguments against AJ being a fabricated ICON symbol for hate speech have holes a mile wide.
First of all Alex Jones, according to court results, IS a bit of a flakey...but by the rules of logical deduction, that's no proof that smears and exaggerations don't serve a twisted purpose...They do serve a purpose, and my deduction is:
   Purpose: associate the dude with Trump.  Pile on a bunch of old crusty SMEARs and 'Trumps likeness' gets a redo...meaning that AJ is an old story, now rejuvenated to prove how all theories (of opponent), BAD...
Sure, I believe the court cases for slander likely are legitimate.
   Oh, and the COVID thingy. Recent contradictory post, there;   The U.S official COVID rates kept going...Up and UP and UP, as vaccine rates climbed.  That's not what got stated, up a couple posts back.
   I'm tired, mentally, of suppressing every last lie, smear, half-truth.
  Just hatem if you want.  I hate the discuises you employ to make your point.  That's your hate speech.
   I'm more interested in arguing Engineering / Science, not some Jr. High School level smear jobs.

In fact you are not---you are always in there pushing your particular barrow!

Alex Jones is a nasty bit of work from any perspective----what did the parents of the dead kids do to hurt him?
In the real world, crazy people grab guns & kill innocents for equally crazy reasons.
Framing that as a "fake" or a "false flag" operation & bashing bereaved families is scumbaggery of the worst kind!

[RJSV]

But, admit your target, please.
   I say your real target is Trump.

   Alex Jones doing harm. False flag ? Just be clear, you are after Trump, who questions things and, the horror, Trump says 'not true'.  So, instead openly hating the questions (from Trump) you wish to disguise with an equivalent stand-in (smear symbol),...even BETTER if children harmed can be tied to Alex Jones, 'just another Trump type vax denier etc.'.
  Why not just HATE directly, so others don't have to decide your timidness.

[TimFox]

Alex Jones profited by selling merchandise to his misguided followers, and libeled parents of dead children.
His followers then threatened and otherwise harassed the parents and others.
Even Trump did not stoop so low.
I only mentioned the legal cases against Jones because you said you "barely knew about" him, and non-US members here presumably had not been too aware of him.
In court, only sworn testimony (instead of gut feelings and unsubstantiated rumors) are admitted.

[Stray Electron]

First court case over being fired for not responding to Musk's email:
RTE news : Senior Irish Twitter exec secures High Court injunction

http://www.rte.ie/news/courts/2022/1125/1338351-twitter-injunction/

   According to the article that you linked to, she has a CONTRACT with Twitter so she's in a totally different position than most Twitter employees.  And this is just a temporary injunction, it's not a final ruling so that could go against her anyway.   IMO it should, since even she pointed out that she got the message to accept and acknowledge Musk's e-mail and she admits that she failed to do so.

[Towger]

Every employee in Ireland has a Contract with their employer. It is a legal requirement, even if you got a part-time job in a pub.

[vk6zgo]

But, admit your target, please.
   I say your real target is Trump.

   Alex Jones doing harm. False flag ? Just be clear, you are after Trump, who questions things and, the horror, Trump says 'not true'.  So, instead openly hating the questions (from Trump) you wish to disguise with an equivalent stand-in (smear symbol),...even BETTER if children harmed can be tied to Alex Jones, 'just another Trump type vax denier etc.'.
  Why not just HATE directly, so others don't have to decide your timidness.

The trouble with today's politics is that so many make up stuff that wasn't in the original comment.

But since you raised the matter, "children harmed"----- that is central to  the arguments of antivaxers, so only one side can say that?

To hell with Trump---I don't like him at all, but he wasn't my President as I don't have a vote in your country.
I don't think Trump was ever silly enough to deny that kids were killed in shootings, so how can a comment on Jones be what you suggest?

Alex Jones is a private citizen who sets himself up as a guru & some silly people hang on his words.
If I say somebody who  smears bereaved parents is a scumbag, that is just who I mean, not some random ex-POTUS.

He is also smearing all the first responders who had to handle a horrific situation, some of which probably voted for Don Trump in the last Presidential election, so are most unlikely to be part of a "fake attack".

[tom66]

Forcing people to accept any medical treatment is against the Nuremberg code. That code was originally about medical experiments on humans, but isn't limited to experiments.

(a) they're not forced, they don't have to work in the NHS or in the section of the NHS dealing with vulnerable patients

(b) NHS staff have been required to have vaccinations in the past and be screened for other diseases, like HIV and Hepatitis.  Here is a pre-COVID document describing this:
https://www.workingwellglos.nhs.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/Countywide-Staff-Screening-and-Immunisation-Policy.pdf

(c) as others have pointed out, a vaccine isn't a medical treatment, and it is ultimately not against the person's free will, just like you have free speech but you can still be fired for calling your boss a c**t.

[wraper]

To hell with Trump---I don't like him at all, but he wasn't my President as I don't have a vote in your country.
I don't think Trump was ever silly enough to deny that kids were killed in shootings, so how can a comment on Jones be what you suggest?

Guilt by association

Alex Jones bad
Alex Jones right wing
Right wing bad
Trump right wing
Trump bad
All Republicans bad

[JohanH]

To hell with Trump---I don't like him at all, but he wasn't my President as I don't have a vote in your country.
I don't think Trump was ever silly enough to deny that kids were killed in shootings, so how can a comment on Jones be what you suggest?

Guilt by association

Alex Jones bad
Alex Jones right wing
Right wing bad
Trump right wing
Trump bad
All Republicans bad

So this thread was about politics then. But they don't make it easy, do they? The press is now touting that Donald Trump had dinner with Nick Fuentes, a prominent neo-Nazi and Holocaust-denier. How many republicans are going to condemn him?  Elon Musk now supporting DeSantis, a right wing conservative, almost to the extreme. Of course Elon supports him, because these people give all the rich people tax breaks. It's very bad for common people that only rich people run the politics in the US.

[dave j]

He did not make a poll for Alex Jones, Basically he refused to unban him for personal reasons. That's what he said:

My firstborn child died in my arms. I felt his last heartbeat.

I have no mercy for anyone who would use the deaths of children for gain, politics or fame.

His ex-wife, the mother of the child that died, disagrees with him about who was holding the child.

A SIDS-related incident that put him on life support. He was declared brain-dead.
And not that it matters to anyone except me, because it is one of the most sacred and defining moments of my life, but I was the one who was holding him.