EEVblog Electronics Community Forum
General => General Technical Chat => Topic started by: IonizedGears on August 05, 2013, 12:23:21 am
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I am currently 15 but I just wanted to know. If I was to go to a uni or college for electrical engineering(masters for 4 years but of coarse); and the same for software engineering as I might want to go into that area as well, how much classes would be required for me to take?
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I might be a little biased, but I would recommend you choose a "hard" engineering discipline like EE as your primary area of study for your first degree, rather than a "soft" subject like software engineering. To be a good engineer you want to make sure there is a lot of physics, science and mathematics in your learning. After completing your primary degree, then consider taking a Master's in software engineering to complement it.
I may get rotten tomatoes thrown at me for saying this, but software engineering struggles to be recognized as a professional engineering discipline. For example, it has only recently been possible to consider getting a P.E. in software engineering. If you are really interested in the software side above all else, you should study computer science.
Also, good engineering skills transcend boundaries. If you turn out to be really good at engineering electronic systems, you should also be good at engineering software systems. These days in fact, most complex systems consist of both hardware and software (or firmware).
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EE is my first and definite choice. I just wanted to know what the classes for EE and SE were like in terms of workload and amount of classes per each profession.
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You should expect the workload for an engineering program to be fairly heavy. There's a lot to learn and a relatively short time to try and learn it.
But my comment on software is this: writing good software is hard. Very hard. Of ten people who think they are software engineers, only one of them will actually be any good at it. But also there is a low barrier to entry, so many people try.
If you are going to be good at writing software, you will find out soon enough. If so, you can learn what you need to learn by self study, by reading books, by practice. I don't think it is worth spending expensive tuition fees to be taught how to write software.
If you are going to spend big bucks on learning engineering, spend the money on something that is hard to learn by yourself, something that has a higher barrier to entry. That means electrical, mechanical, civil, chemical engineering, etc.
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I second the comment about software. It's very hard to teach good programming skills. When I was studying CS, most of the coursework was pretty easy, but successfully completing it did not mean you would be a good programmer.
My rule about workload is this: if you're going to go to school to learn how to do something, expect to spend the time working your ass off, otherwise why waste the money? If the coursework is easy that just means you should be finding your own extracurricular ways to learn and improve. If you're in Intro CS and find it easy, go find a hard project to do in between banging out silly intro code.
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I second the comment about software. It's very hard to teach good programming skills. When I was studying CS, most of the coursework was pretty easy, but successfully completing it did not mean you would be a good programmer.
My rule about workload is this: if you're going to go to school to learn how to do something, expect to spend the time working your ass off, otherwise why waste the money? If the coursework is easy that just means you should be finding your own extracurricular ways to learn and improve. If you're in Intro CS and find it easy, go find a hard project to do in between banging out silly intro code.
I just wanted to know if i would get a all in one class for electrical engineering or separate classes for math, etc for the most part -_-
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You'll need to take calculus up through differential equations separately plus physics for EE. For CS the requirements do vary - at my school it was calculus through just before diff eq, plus discrete mathematics, linear algebra, probability and stats and a "science" requirement (one of physics, chemistry, etc). I think the software engineering program removed the requirement for linear algebra. I haven't heard of it being "all in one class" before. :-//
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You'll need to take calculus up through differential equations separately plus physics for EE. For CS the requirements do vary - at my school it was calculus through just before diff eq, plus discrete mathematics, linear algebra, probability and stats and a "science" requirement (one of physics, chemistry, etc). I think the software engineering program removed the requirement for linear algebra. I haven't heard of it being "all in one class" before. :-//
So wait, if i was to take EE and CS at the same time. Would i have to get two different calculus classes or just the one (if i am taking both at the same uni).
But i am guessing it would be much too much work to go for both at the same time.
Just curious though, what exactly do they teach you in CS apart from the math sciences? Such as computer languages etc.
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You'd have to take the union of the sets. At my school (RIT in Rochester NY) that would have been diff eq, discrete math, linear algebra, probability and statistics as well as the "basic" calculus schedule (the part that can be covered by high school AP credits). I remember taking multivariate calculus as well but can't remember whether that was before or after my switch to mathematics.
CS is more about algorithms and programming techniques than languages. Any good programmer should be able to pick up basic competency in any reasonable programming language (i.e. anything but this one (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brainfuck)) in a couple days; there's no point in teaching them. RIT's CS program made a point of teaching variety and versatility in languages instead, we used whatever language was most fit to the topic of the individual class. Python for "academic" CS algorithms because it avoids specifics of the architecture, Java for OOP, C and C++ for coding closer to the machine, and MIPS assembly for... well, assembly. And that's just in my short year and a half before I switched.
Both at the same time is closer to Computer Engineering - look at that if you're interested in both fields.
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Is computer engineering a good replacement for both EE and CS or does it leave things to be desired.
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The phrase "jack of all trades, master of none" comes to mind, but I wouldn't really know, so I shouldn't sling mud. Anybody else know?
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Is computer engineering a good replacement for both EE and CS or does it leave things to be desired.
it's basically like their child. it'll have traits of both, but not the full depth of its parents.
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Well it is EE for me then, it is mandatory for me whilst things like software will be second :)
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Any electrical engineer these days will do a decent bit of programming as well, whether microcontrollers, FPGAs, test suites for ATE, on and on.... If it's a secondary interest go with EE.
I might be a bit biased based on my experience with CS and SE, but as far as I'm concerned, if you want to build things study EE, if you want to be a code monkey study SE, if you want to be a basement-dwelling code monkey study CS (slightly kidding ;D I still have a soft spot for it...), and if you like searching for jobs study CE.
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I just wanted to know if i would get a all in one class for electrical engineering or separate classes for math, etc for the most part -_-
No, when you study at university your study is spread over many different specialized classes in specific subjects. So for EE, in addition to basic math and physics, you take classes in things like: DC circuit analysis, AC circuit analysis, small signal theory, frequency domain analysis, solid state physics, detailed device modeling and behavior (transistor equations etc), power systems and power transfer, control systems theory, analog circuit design, digital circuit design, computers and information processing, etc. There is no such thing as an "EE" class, as such.
To train as an EE you study many different things that are all part of EE, and when you start work you will probably end up specializing in some particular field.
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I just wanted to know if i would get a all in one class for electrical engineering or separate classes for math, etc for the most part -_-
It's separate classes for everything.
I don't know what the US is like, but it's likely not too dissimilar everywhere. You can expect maybe 3 classes on calculus, and another two or 3 in physics, in addition to all your EE classes.
You usually do all the math and physics up front, with the EE later. That can be incredibly boring for those who are there to do actual electronics (a small number believe it or not)
And it's no uncommon for the physics department to run the physics classes etc, so they have no idea or interest in what you are learning in other EE classes. That means usually no EE spin on it. You can even get mixed in with students from many other disciplines.
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To train as an EE you study many different things that are all part of EE
And depending upon the university, you can learn other engineering disciplines as well.
For example, the first two years of the UWS EE course include compulsory mechanical and civil engineering classes, "just in case" you want to change disciplines at the end of year two.
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It's separate classes for everything.
You can expect maybe 3 classes on calculus, and another two or 3 in physics, in addition to all your EE classes.
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3 classes a week for calculus with the same Prof or with different Professors? Same for physics?
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You usually do all the math and physics up front, with the EE later. That can be incredibly boring for those who are there to do actual electronics (a small number believe it or not)
A lot of schools here are moving away from that. Here's RIT's EE schedule (http://www.rit.edu/kgcoe/eme/docs/RIT_EE_BSEE.pdf) - you start right out with the "EE Freshman Practicum" first term. From the course catalog:
Introduction to the practice of electrical engineering including understanding laboratory practice, identifying electronic components, operating generic electronic instruments, building an electronic circuit (Wein Bridge oscillator), measuring and capturing an electronic waveform, schematic entry, modeling and simulation of an electronic circuit (SPICE or equivalent), analyzing a waveform using a commercial software package (MATLAB), and emulating an electronic instrument in software (C programming). This studio lab course emphasizes a learn-by-doing approach to introduce the student to electrical engineering design practices and tools used throughout the undergraduate program. Each student will prototype and build a functioning electronic circuit. Lab 3, Credit 1 (F, W)
Quite the intro! Nothing in second term, but third term is right to Digital Systems. My current school waits until the second year, though.
Now stop making me look at stuff from RIT, I'm starting to feel bad and wish I could switch back..... :-\ :D
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3 classes a week for calculus with the same Prof or with different Professors? Same for physics?
3 classes total, one per term. How it's split up per week depends on the school. You usually choose the class and section each time, so you can pick a different professor if you get stuck with a dickhead :-+
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3 classes a week for calculus with the same Prof or with different Professors? Same for physics?
3 classes total, one per term. How it's split up per week depends on the school. You usually choose the class and section each time, so you can pick a different professor if you get stuck with a dickhead :-+
Thanks for clearing that up, for a second there i thought i would have to handle over 6 different classes a week. :scared:
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I'll put you in contact with my friend studying biochem so he can laugh at your fear..... :-DD
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...How many classes does he have?
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I think he did have six each term for a year or two straight, and hard ones at that. (RIT has three terms per year, though they call them "quarters" because summer....) He was the busiest, most overworked student I have ever seen. Never saw him without a textbook... I had five my first term but one was some retarded once-per-week "First Year Experience" thing (I think the nitwits renamed it to "Discovery" or some shit), so pretty much four.
Haven't heard much from him since I switched schools though, don't know if his load has lightened any.
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I am 15 so i have no idea what hard means from a college students perspective. :-//
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"Easy" means you hold hands and sing Kumbayah, sometimes startlingly close to literally. "Hard" means you contemplate suicide (or professorcide) by textbook.
Remember the last night of hell when all of your teachers gave you huge assignments all on the same night because screw collaborating to find out when the other teachers are giving assignments? Picture that every night for a season.
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:scared: Was he at least going for a Phd?
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I think so.
I must add that despite being barely able to breathe between turning pages, typing and writing, he was happy. Some people just like that kind of thing. If anyone I know is cut out to pursue a Ph.D. it's him.
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Wait, is it possible to have made it so he got half the amount of classes at one time but more terms? If so wouldn't it cost much more money even though you are technically getting the same amount of classes in the long term?
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Yes, you would spend a lot more, and waste a lot of time too. It takes a long time to get a Ph.D. even going full throttle, if you can't be bothered to push through piles of hard work you'll be lucky to get it by the time you're 70.
The vast majority of my classes don't go beyond "medium", don't be too scared. Though if you slack off the difficulty quickly increases as you're incrementally left behind. Don't slack off. Especially not because you know all the material in the class already (What? You think I'm saying I've done that? >:D), you'll always find there's some tiny detail that you miss that leaves you good and screwed.
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Do you have any tips for when i do start my uni trek of EE? The tip for not slacking off might just save me later.
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I am 15 so i have no idea what hard means from a college students perspective. :-//
It sort of depends on how you find high school now. The things you study are not "harder" as such, but the workload tends to be much higher.
In college and university courses you have to be much more self-motivated. Nobody is going to be chasing you to get work done, you have to keep on top of it and make note of the deadlines. If you miss submission deadlines you just drop grades you will never get back.
There is also a strong emphasis on self-study and personal learning. You are not likely to learn what you need just by listening in class. You will have to go away and apply it, do the tutorial exercises, read books and keep at it until you fully understand it.
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Ian- Well it is a good thing i am going through the art of electronics and reteaching myself java right now. Should be a great way to get used to self learning and such.
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Wait, is it possible to have made it so he got half the amount of classes at one time but more terms? If so wouldn't it cost much more money even though you are technically getting the same amount of classes in the long term?
At my univ, 6 courses (~25 +/- 25% hours per week) per semester per year is standard (50ish courses over 4 years, a couple of 1hour/week gimmick courses)
You can technically do less courses per term here, but there's a time restriction on the degree, as it has to be completed within 6 years. Some students take some of the courses over spring/summer terms so they don't have to do the full 6 over each of fall/winter.
Hard is when you're the only undergrad in graduate level courses. ;) Though from what I've noticed, this isn't so common with engineering as it is with physics.
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3 classes a week for calculus with the same Prof or with different Professors? Same for physics?
No, usually only one maths and one physics class per semester (6 months).
Almost certainly different teachers as I said, they often "shop out" these classes to the math and physics departments.
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In college and university courses you have to be much more self-motivated. Nobody is going to be chasing you to get work done, you have to keep on top of it and make note of the deadlines. If you miss submission deadlines you just drop grades you will never get back.
There is also a strong emphasis on self-study and personal learning. You are not likely to learn what you need just by listening in class. You will have to go away and apply it, do the tutorial exercises, read books and keep at it until you fully understand it.
That's the huge difference between tertiary education and high school.
It is not compulsary. No one cares if you turn up, no one cares if you pass or fail, that's entirely up to you.
You usually don't have to turn up for anything but the assessable stuff like practical classes and tests. If you think you can pass the course without attending any lectures, then you don't have to attend lectures at all.
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Hard is when you're the only undergrad in graduate level courses.
That's the other thing. If you want to sit in on the 4th year lectures and you are only in 1st year, no problem, just get a timetable and turn up.
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Do you have to be a student at a uni to attend lectures? If not, that basically means you are only really paying for the record of grades :) But thanks for telling me I could shadow lectures like that, certainly a thing I will try when I am going to uni.
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Do you have to be a student at a uni to attend lectures?
Legally, by the book, likely not, you could get booted out for trespassing or whatever.
But in practice you could just rock up. They usually don't take roll call or ask for ID. But depends entirely upon the school and how they work.
You hear stories about people spending years hanging around uni's without ever being enrolled there.
If not, that basically means you are only really paying for the record of grades :)
Basically, yes.
You can do the entire MIT EE degree for free via online videos, you just don't get the degree.
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Hard is when you're the only undergrad in graduate level courses.
That's the other thing. If you want to sit in on the 4th year lectures and you are only in 1st year, no problem, just get a timetable and turn up.
Actually, EE and Honours Physics degrees (that I'm sure of) at my school allow you to take many of the 500 and 600 level courses (whose class prefix is the same as your department) for credit for exceptional students. Makes curve grading that much more fun.
EE even allows some biomedical engineering (BME) category courses in MRIs.
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These are the courses that my uni requires:
- Plain EEE: http://ecms.adelaide.edu.au/current-students/enrolment/study-plans/eleceng/beng-electrical-electronic.pdf (http://ecms.adelaide.edu.au/current-students/enrolment/study-plans/eleceng/beng-electrical-electronic.pdf)
- EEE with Maths (this is the current version of what I just finished): http://ecms.adelaide.edu.au/current-students/enrolment/study-plans/eleceng/beng-electrical-electronic-b-macompsci-maths-major.pdf (http://ecms.adelaide.edu.au/current-students/enrolment/study-plans/eleceng/beng-electrical-electronic-b-macompsci-maths-major.pdf)
- EEE with CS: http://ecms.adelaide.edu.au/current-students/enrolment/study-plans/eleceng/beng-electrical-electronic-b-macompsci-compsci-major.pdf (http://ecms.adelaide.edu.au/current-students/enrolment/study-plans/eleceng/beng-electrical-electronic-b-macompsci-compsci-major.pdf)
They are for the most part three lectures and a tutorial per week, as well as 3hr/week in the lab for each discipline. I did a double degree in pure maths, which has been reasonably useful to me, but YMMV.
A brief summary: The first year is taken up by introductory courses in maths, physics, CS, and EEE. In second-year one takes 50% EEE, the rest split between applied maths and computer science. The third and final years are all EEE unless you are doing a double degree. Final year includes a reasonably substantial project (mine involved designing a simple PCB, about 10k lines of FPGA/C++ code, and about three lab books worth of maths, to give some indication of the work involved).
The workload varies. At first I didn't feel it to be substantially more difficult than high-school, but those who were not as mathematically inclined tended to struggle. Your life will be much easier if you turn up already able to program reasonably well.
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Nobody's mentioned the fun classes like Antenna Design, Wave Propagation, Transmission Lines, Microwave Design, Computational Electromagnetics... Come on people ;)
Seriously though, I've found that the first few years of EE were not too bad in terms of workload. That doesn't mean you can skip class or ignore assignments, but I've completed 3.5/4 years without ever pulling an all-nighter, and I'm one of the top students in my class. Plan your time well and don't be an idiot.
A few of my tips:
1. Read the book, even if you don't have to for class. You learn so much more from them than the professor will cover in class.
2. Try to apply it to the real world. So many students have no interest in learning things because they've never dealt with them before and don't realize how important so many things are.
3. Study as you go, not on the night before the exam. Last minute cramming is stupid and you will learn nothing in the long run.
At my school, you have a lot of choice about which classes you can take after you are done with the basics. From my list above, it should be pretty clear what I am doing. The sooner you figure out which emphasis you want, the more classes you can take in it. The classes get more intense as you move forward, but your ability to handle it also improves. At least in my experience.
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About computer engineering, since that's what I ended up getting my degree in. It depends on your school, but I got a good balance of CS and EE classes. You have to take the same intro CS and EE classes as everyone else in those majors, then the required upper division stuff starts getting an embedded systems feel to it, which uses both the CS and EE stuff. The last year you pretty much get to pick technical electives to suit your interest. If you are more into EE, take more EE technical electives, otherwise do more CS ones. For my senior project I got to pick if I wanted to do an EE or CS project (I did the EE one). All you can really expect straight out of college is having a good knowledge base. Especially the way modern electronics integrates embedded systems with everything I think my CE degree was a good choice, for me at least. I know I used both CS and EE aspects right off the bat at my first job and I was glad to have been exposed to both in some detail. You can always check the course plans for the various majors and see how they differ. If all the classes in one major sound more interesting to you, then take those. You can always (with a little pain and suffering) change your mind later.
It's never too early to start reading about/working with the stuff you are interested in. It's amazing how much easier it is to learn and retain lecture material if you have some idea of what it is before you go in to it. That's why they recommend you read the chapters before you go to the lectures (even though most people don't).
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In my university:
We have(/had) one maths course in the first year, all exams are taken online and there is a MATLAB module. It covers basic algebra to differentiation, complex numbers and Laplace transforms.
We have advanced circuits course, and a less advanced more practical circuits course.
And a communications class.
And a physics class, mostly covering semiconductor theory.
And a programming/microcontrollers/digital logic course.