Author Topic: Engineering code of conduct  (Read 4794 times)

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Online tggzzz

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Re: Engineering code of conduct
« Reply #25 on: June 03, 2020, 07:50:58 am »
REAL WORLD: boss refuses to sign or put anything in writing, and says if you don't complete the task you'll be fired.

There are ways to help guard against that.

In the UK civil service the "traditional" way is that if you are being instructed to do something you think is wrong you write a formal letter/email to the manager stating what you believe they are asking you to do, your objections, and "ask for written guidance".

Then if push comes to shove you have something to show HR and employment tribunals. If you are dismissed "unfairly" or in this case "constructively" then you can be awarded triple damages; I know someone that received that and walked into another better job :)

Quote
Been there done that, walked off the job and left them to it. Wrote a letter explaining the reasons and sent a copy to their legal department pointing out the specific legislation that I refused to break and that I knew they had a management chain who intended to ignore it. Better than possibly going to jail for negligence if anything went wrong.

Yes; I've never had to do that.

BTW, the OP is right not to provide details of the particular situation. The mud-ball details are irrelevant when considering general principles visible from 30000ft :)

There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
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Online tggzzz

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Re: Engineering code of conduct
« Reply #26 on: June 03, 2020, 07:54:34 am »
Often management would also want a one on one meeting to discuss such pressing issues, in that case you have nobody to back you up, so id recommend recording such meetings on your phone.

In such situations try to have a "supporter" in the room. They are there to make sure neither side's points are missed or misunderstood.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
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Offline tszabooTopic starter

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Re: Engineering code of conduct
« Reply #27 on: June 03, 2020, 08:29:47 am »
Thats a lot of reply. I will give some background.
The company I work for typically deals with ATEX/IECEX equipment. We design intrinsically safe electronics devices, that go into areas where explosive atmospheres are likely. When we design stuff here, we follow the law, we follow the IEC rules, we follow the national standards, and everything is checked and double checked by a notified body. Otherwise I would've left a long time ago. I personally oversee a lot of these projects, and designed electronics here.

There are a few projects, that dont require this. So this project doesn't go into an ATEX zone. But it is an electrical box that is bolted on an IBC tank, controlling 230V/380V heating equipment on that tank. Few KW goes here. The tanks can carry anything from milk, to paints, fuels, chemicals. Anything liquid that would need heating. We made a GPS tracker, and we connect a 3rd party heating controller to the cloud. It needs new wiring, 230V and low voltage. Setting the tank on fire is very very unlikely, but even so, I wouldnt take any chances. Even simple things, like missing ferrules, or having insufficient isolation thickness on a cable.

We are not going to do these installations/modifications. So there is the problem, that we dont even have the expertise to make electrical drawings. The engineers here, we make PCBs, not electrical boxes. We dont even know, which standard to bring up. And management's mentality is: If the client havent asked for a standard, it is not required.

Who will be performing installations of this box on the customer side? I bet it typically be a qualified electrician who may flag the design/drawings as not compliant to the Electric Code of the country of installation. This situation is just begging for troubles for your company and may expose to liabilities.
Yes, it would probably just stop there, and bounce back as a problem.

Are you even legally allowed to design such systems? Academic qualifications alone don't make you eligible to certify, design or even work on all kinds of electrical stuff. So maybe design the wiring diagram to your best knowledge to make your boss happy, and then tell him that someone with the appropriate qualifications needs to take it from there.
Probably not. But then again, if someone would ask you, which standard you need to apply when designing a suspension bridge, what would you say?

P.S. Worked with an ATEX approved product where the Ph.D engineer ran a power cable inside a 4,000L gasoline tank  :palm:
My first reaction is also that. But inside the tank is Zone 0, so if the current/voltage/power on that cable is below the IIC limits, and the cable can handle that environment continuously forever, and the connections have triple safety, that could be a valid design. In any case, if it is possible to avoid, I would do anything to avoid that.
Anybody can be an "engineering manager".
Dont even get me started on that.
 

Offline tszabooTopic starter

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Re: Engineering code of conduct
« Reply #28 on: June 03, 2020, 08:40:25 am »
And management's mentality is: If the client havent asked for a standard, it is not required.
Actually, I just had an idea. We need CE on the product, that means, that it needs to confirm with the LVD.
"About the low voltage directive (LVD)
The LVD covers health and safety risks on electrical equipment operating with an input or output voltage of between

50 and 1000 V for alternating current
75 and 1500 V for direct current"

We just need to have someone state that this is a requirement, and start from there. It will be revealed, that we don't have the expertise for that.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2020, 09:06:33 am by NANDBlog »
 

Offline m98

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Re: Engineering code of conduct
« Reply #29 on: June 03, 2020, 09:11:24 am »
Probably not. But then again, if someone would ask you, which standard you need to apply when designing a suspension bridge, what would you say?
The task you described sounds like something every industrial electrician could do in less than a day, maybe convince your Boss to hire one for the job?
I wouldn't have a clue where to even start designing a suspension bridge, but if I had to design an electrical installation, I'd know where to find the applying standards: https://www.vde-verlag.de/standards.html
 
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Offline tszabooTopic starter

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Re: Engineering code of conduct
« Reply #30 on: June 03, 2020, 09:22:01 am »
Probably not. But then again, if someone would ask you, which standard you need to apply when designing a suspension bridge, what would you say?
The task you described sounds like something every industrial electrician could do in less than a day, maybe convince your Boss to hire one for the job?
I wouldn't have a clue where to even start designing a suspension bridge, but if I had to design an electrical installation, I'd know where to find the applying standards: https://www.vde-verlag.de/standards.html
That's what I'm trying to achieve.
VDE is also good idea. The customer is German, they would ask for it. So LVD and VDE.

Not to mention, being a German standard, we have a good excuse of not knowing it.
 

Offline Jeroen3

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Re: Engineering code of conduct
« Reply #31 on: June 03, 2020, 09:53:48 am »
You're getting into an expensive project if you need to sell it to Germans.   :popcorn:

There are no laws restricting who may or may not engineer things in europe iirc. Everything is "industry regulated".
There is also no law for electricians. Law just says the owner of the building/company must ensure compliance to relevant industry standard.
Germans enforce standards a lot more strictly than the Dutch.
(if specific standard was named it must be freely available, undermining standards bureau revenue)
But we have some mandated things. eg: working with refrigerant (STEK), transporting hazardous materials (ADR) or working on oil/gas infrastructure (government owned).
The rest is up to the morals of the company or the rules enforced by the insurance company or customer.

However, during litigation the engineer may still end up in prison. Eg: Volkswagen diesel scandal..
So you're not safe. But, if manager asks interns of juniors to design safety things, yeah, that's on him.
See the Stint accident. (i suspect everyone here can do a better job)

tl;dr: Ask who is doing the liability insurance.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2020, 09:58:03 am by Jeroen3 »
 

Offline madires

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Re: Engineering code of conduct
« Reply #32 on: June 03, 2020, 10:04:54 am »
Your German customer has to make sure that the machine adheres to accepted standards anyway. Otherwise the insurance wouldn't pay if something unplanned happens.
 

Offline olkipukki

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Re: Engineering code of conduct
« Reply #33 on: June 03, 2020, 10:51:16 am »
Just my 2 cents

The EE told his manager that he doesn't have the expertise to do it, the manager said that bullshit, they are just electrons and do the task.

Whatever (s)he said mean nothing, might be forgot already and you cannot reference to this after some time, such as "he said that, I did that"

We dont have the expertise at the firm to design this,

EE should write an email to express his(-er) concerns and doubts.
Don't use first-person forms, overall context should be watered down and diluted a bit  - just open for different interpretations and enough pass a ball to manager's side.
The wording is very important on this stage.


Also, EE should CC more than once person and asked their opinions, but don't escalate

Of course, extremes happened very rare, a manager can invite EE "wtf're doing....? you're fired!"   >:D

we should hire a consultant to do it.

Keep your mouth shut until a manager ask what options are.
In most companies, to hire a person (perm/temp) a long and painful procurement process, don't forget your manager need to explain to level up why (s)he need additional budget, people and time,
and also arrange with HR etc.

In short, it's not your problem, let manager to do their job


...engineering code...
What I see here, it is breaking the first two rules.
You do not want to remind 'Hippocratic Oath' to your manager

And I will step in, stop whats happening and right this situation.
You need to be dragged into this by EE or ideally by your manager, not voluntary to 'step in'

But then again, this could get me or the guy fired if I dont communicate it well, or just seriously harm work relations.
I am not expert in NL employment laws, but to fire somebody who refused to do a work not been hired, very unlike in the most EU countries.
In worst cases, your manager will be upset and put 'a mark' on you.
 

Offline Jeroen3

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Re: Engineering code of conduct
« Reply #34 on: June 03, 2020, 12:17:25 pm »
Refusing to do a job you're not qualified for is not a valid reason to be fired. Your lawyer will have a field day. And any lawsuit will become public knowledge. Not the best path as employer to pick.
Unless you have been hired to do that job specifically, then you can be fired obviously.

In all other cases you have to be bullied out.
 

Online bdunham7

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Re: Engineering code of conduct
« Reply #35 on: June 03, 2020, 04:41:41 pm »
Thats a lot of reply. I will give some background.
The company I work for typically deals with ATEX/IECEX equipment. We design intrinsically safe electronics devices, that go into areas where explosive atmospheres are likely. When we design stuff here, we follow the law, we follow the IEC rules, we follow the national standards, and everything is checked and double checked by a notified body. Otherwise I would've left a long time ago. I personally oversee a lot of these projects, and designed electronics here.

There are a few projects, that dont require this. So this project doesn't go into an ATEX zone. But it is an electrical box that is bolted on an IBC tank, controlling 230V/380V heating equipment on that tank. Few KW goes here. The tanks can carry anything from milk, to paints, fuels, chemicals. Anything liquid that would need heating. We made a GPS tracker, and we connect a 3rd party heating controller to the cloud. It needs new wiring, 230V and low voltage. Setting the tank on fire is very very unlikely, but even so, I wouldnt take any chances. Even simple things, like missing ferrules, or having insufficient isolation thickness on a cable.

We are not going to do these installations/modifications. So there is the problem, that we dont even have the expertise to make electrical drawings. The engineers here, we make PCBs, not electrical boxes. We dont even know, which standard to bring up. And management's mentality is: If the client havent asked for a standard, it is not required.

Thanks for the detail.  It's an interesting dilemma and I can't advise you as to how your laws work on this, but just generally it appears that this electrical box ends up being integrated into an end product that is at least nominally portable, right?  I'm assuming IBC tanks aren't used in permanent installations, someone correct me if I'm wrong. So the building electrical codes wouldn't really apply, but there would be a bunch of other ones that now would.  You mentioned the obvious, CE, but the whole notion of using it for such a wide variety of uses would really have me worried.  Even jellybean ICs often have restrictions on using them in aviation, medical, military, mining, critical process control, etc.  You need an additional certification (and $$$ more) to get essentially the same part but for that application.  I don't know how you go about designing and certifying even a simple product for use in that many areas. 
A 3.5 digit 4.5 digit 5 digit 5.5 digit 6.5 digit 7.5 digit DMM is good enough for most people.
 

Online nctnico

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Re: Engineering code of conduct
« Reply #36 on: June 03, 2020, 04:59:46 pm »
We are not going to do these installations/modifications. So there is the problem, that we dont even have the expertise to make electrical drawings. The engineers here, we make PCBs, not electrical boxes. We dont even know, which standard to bring up. And management's mentality is: If the client havent asked for a standard, it is not required.
Perhaps it is a test to see how resourceful the engineering department actually is. Engineers are supposed to come up with solutions. For starters: figure out which standards apply. Look on internet for pointers, call a few companies. My simple solution for these kind of situations is: acquire the knowledge to do the job. An engineer is never done learning.

Edit: Gregg's solutionm (outsourcing) is also a good one but you'll still need to know some basic regulations / requirements to verify the solutions offered is the right one.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2020, 09:03:20 pm by nctnico »
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Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: Engineering code of conduct
« Reply #37 on: June 03, 2020, 05:47:00 pm »
And management's mentality is: If the client havent asked for a standard, it is not required.
Actually, I just had an idea. We need CE on the product, that means, that it needs to confirm with the LVD.
"About the low voltage directive (LVD)
The LVD covers health and safety risks on electrical equipment operating with an input or output voltage of between

50 and 1000 V for alternating current
75 and 1500 V for direct current"

We just need to have someone state that this is a requirement, and start from there. It will be revealed, that we don't have the expertise for that.

Well, obviously if it has to comply with the LVD (and all the more if you don't have much in-house expertise on that/and thus internal knowledge and appropriate means of testing), you are STRONGLY adivsed to have your device tested in an external lab that will analyze the design and test it and eventually give its compliance approval or not. If your management half knows how to deal with CE marking, they will likely tell you that. And if you manage to get something to pass the conformance tests, although not a 100% guarantee that it is well designed, it will be at least a guarantee that it is compliant with the required standards. Now if you never manage (at least in reasonable time) to get something to pass, then OTOH you'll have proven you're not qualified for that.

Of course never ACCEPT to release a design if your management doesn't want to pay for external conformance tests.

But as long as some engineering task doesn't formally require a specific qualification that you don't have, I don't think you can really refuse the job. Just make it clear, as others have said, that you have limited knowledge and experience for this, and that using an external lab for compliance testing won't be optional. That will put all the responsibility in the hands of your manager(s).
 

Offline 0culus

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Re: Engineering code of conduct
« Reply #38 on: June 03, 2020, 06:29:36 pm »
Geez, guys, don't you think you're going a bit overboard?   :-DD

Signing petitions??? Contacting lawyers?? Documenting everything??

Don't you think you should see if there's a problem first?

From a non-life-critical systems perspective, often the most effective course I've seen used in situations where you're asked to do something you know isn't going to work or will cause more problems is to explain why it won't work (in writing) and (in writing) ask the person requesting the work to provide (in writing) that they are taking responsibility for it. Usually you don't hear another word from them about it. Office politics...  :palm:
 

Online tggzzz

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Re: Engineering code of conduct
« Reply #39 on: June 03, 2020, 06:37:31 pm »
Geez, guys, don't you think you're going a bit overboard?   :-DD

Signing petitions??? Contacting lawyers?? Documenting everything??

Don't you think you should see if there's a problem first?

From a non-life-critical systems perspective, often the most effective course I've seen used in situations where you're asked to do something you know isn't going to work or will cause more problems is to explain why it won't work (in writing) and (in writing) ask the person requesting the work to provide (in writing) that they are taking responsibility for it. Usually you don't hear another word from them about it. Office politics...  :palm:

Yes.

That's a variant of the "requesting written guidance" technique I outlined earlier - but more passive-aggressive and therefore better suited to the UK civil service :)
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
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Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Engineering code of conduct
« Reply #40 on: June 03, 2020, 08:42:06 pm »
More details on what is required for this box would be very helpful.

I once had a change order for a large 480 volt 3 phase project dumped on me to provide lead/lag for a number of pumps and fans.  After a couple of hours on the internet I found a company that specialized in such items and called them on the phone and explained that I wanted to talk to one of their engineers before I talked to sales.  After a little explanation, I was able to talk to the right person and emailed a block diagram of what was needed.  Meanwhile I put together spreadsheet with a BOM and estimated labor to do it in house.  The next day I received a quote for the complete panel with a projected lead time and it was about 60% of the estimate I had made.  I took the results to my boss and explained that it would be cheaper and faster to just buy what we needed.

Moral of the story is not to butt heads with management, but gently lead them to the right decision.  I have had more than one manager tell me that they didn’t have to know what their people did; they only had to know how to manage.
That's an excellent example of being the solution instead of the problem. That's how you resolve conflicts like a pro.
 

Offline tszabooTopic starter

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Re: Engineering code of conduct
« Reply #41 on: June 03, 2020, 09:33:10 pm »
We are not going to do these installations/modifications. So there is the problem, that we dont even have the expertise to make electrical drawings. The engineers here, we make PCBs, not electrical boxes. We dont even know, which standard to bring up. And management's mentality is: If the client havent asked for a standard, it is not required.
Perhaps it is a test to see how resourceful the engineering department actually is. Engineers are supposed to come up with solutions. For starters: figure out which standards apply. Look on internet for pointers, call a few companies. My simple solution for these kind of situations is: acquire the knowledge to do the job. An engineer is never done learning.

Edit: Gregg's solutionm (outsourcing) is also a good one but you'll still need to know some basic regulations / requirements to verify the solutions offered is the right one.
We did that. We hacked together a proof of concept wiring last week which was working. I helped him, after he asked for my help, thats how I'm even got involved in this. He shared his concerns about the drawing, and other problems.
I dont need to be an electrician to say that the hacked together part is not safe.

If your management half knows how to deal with CE marking, they will likely tell you that. And if you manage to get something to pass the conformance tests, although not a 100% guarantee that it is well designed, it will be at least a guarantee that it is compliant with the required standards. Now if you never manage (at least in reasonable time) to get something to pass, then OTOH you'll have proven you're not qualified for that.

Of course never ACCEPT to release a design if your management doesn't want to pay for external conformance tests.

But as long as some engineering task doesn't formally require a specific qualification that you don't have, I don't think you can really refuse the job. Just make it clear, as others have said, that you have limited knowledge and experience for this, and that using an external lab for compliance testing won't be optional. That will put all the responsibility in the hands of your manager(s).

Due to ATEX we have to constantly deal with CE, certifications and such. Regularly with and ATEX project, all they see is that a paper shows up, a bill from the NoBo, and thats it. It is a nuisance, an inconvenience for them, months of hard work from me. At least this is for the upper management. We couldn't successfully explain, why does intrinsic safety increase the project difficulty.
And of course, they think that there is no ATEX on this product, so no rules apply. We do whatever the hell we want. I'll just simply going to point out, that we can't.
 

Online nctnico

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Re: Engineering code of conduct
« Reply #42 on: June 03, 2020, 09:42:23 pm »
We are not going to do these installations/modifications. So there is the problem, that we dont even have the expertise to make electrical drawings. The engineers here, we make PCBs, not electrical boxes. We dont even know, which standard to bring up. And management's mentality is: If the client havent asked for a standard, it is not required.
Perhaps it is a test to see how resourceful the engineering department actually is. Engineers are supposed to come up with solutions. For starters: figure out which standards apply. Look on internet for pointers, call a few companies. My simple solution for these kind of situations is: acquire the knowledge to do the job. An engineer is never done learning.

Edit: Gregg's solutionm (outsourcing) is also a good one but you'll still need to know some basic regulations / requirements to verify the solutions offered is the right one.
We did that. We hacked together a proof of concept wiring last week which was working. I helped him, after he asked for my help, thats how I'm even got involved in this. He shared his concerns about the drawing, and other problems.
I dont need to be an electrician to say that the hacked together part is not safe.
But there must be someone who can tell you what regulations apply. Perhaps Dare consultancy (a safety and EMC consulting / testing lab in the Netherlands) can help you out.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline floobydust

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Re: Engineering code of conduct
« Reply #43 on: June 03, 2020, 09:52:28 pm »
It's three issues:
Heater controller safety - proper sensors and limit switches, controller is wired and configured properly etc.
Electrical safety - proper fusing, wiring, enclosure etc.
Vessel safety - proper pressure relief valve, not an old rusty tank, shutoff valves etc.
(possible HazLoc safety IEC60079)

This "IoT crisis" for many companies has them scrambling to outfit equipment they have no knowledge about, and their team is not qualified to do 100%. The danger is all this stuff outside of your knowledge and expertise, are you now an electrician or vessel or heater expert? Learning is great and fun- but not appropriate where there are safety hazards and this is why mentors exist.
Second danger is management buying on the cheap old equipment and refitting it for a new purpose that it may not be suitable for or is worn out.

There are many specific safety standards for fluid heaters and their controllers, IEC 60730 part 2's for example. Water, oil flammables are different sections.
The danger is if the fluid is overheated, say from a stuck contactor or bad sensor. The hardware and software are to be done a certain way, redundancy, safety limits etc. defined in those standards. I assuming you're using a suitable controller but even then there are specific requirements.

The tank also needs (pressure vessel safety codes) pressure relief valves to avoid explosions, so that is another level of regulatory for the piping and tank. Regular pressure tests, inspections so you don't use a rusty old tank.

For the electrical regulations, you can make the panel yourself and have it inspected. Or give it to an electrical contractor who knows them.
 

Offline tszabooTopic starter

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Re: Engineering code of conduct
« Reply #44 on: June 03, 2020, 10:17:16 pm »
It's three issues:
Heater controller safety - proper sensors and limit switches, controller is wired and configured properly etc.
We saw from example, that they are using redundant controllers in an AND relay configuration. The controller is replaced with a newer type, that has serial interface. I'm not too concerned about this, we worked with different examples, and saw others implement our device in their electrical boxes. We just never had to do it ourselves.

Quote
Vessel safety - proper pressure relief valve, not an old rusty tank, shutoff valves etc.
(possible HazLoc safety IEC60079)
The container is not energized in Hazloc, it is clearly stated. I'm not to concerned about valves or burst discs and such, as that is the container manufacturer's job. I also saw the maintenance schedule, its OK.

Quote
Electrical safety - proper fusing, wiring, enclosure etc.
This is the only thing that is being questioned.

This "IoT crisis" for many companies has them scrambling to outfit equipment they have no knowledge about, and their team is not qualified to do 100%.
You are describing my company, one year before I started there.

But there must be someone who can tell you what regulations apply. Perhaps Dare consultancy (a safety and EMC consulting / testing lab in the Netherlands) can help you out.
I'm quite sure there is. We also has a project manager, who is more concerned about me filling out my time sheet,  and organizing sprint reviews, than writing proper project requirements. The agile cancer.
 

Offline floobydust

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Re: Engineering code of conduct
« Reply #45 on: June 03, 2020, 10:45:03 pm »
For the electrical panels, you have to purchase, read and know the safety codes to play electrician.
EE's mix up colour codes, don't know the grounding and wire gauges required, Wye/Delta poly-phase power, conduit-fitting sizes and types - there is a lot to learn and mistakes can have consequences.

First I subcontracted out to a panel shop and they looked after it all. You should do this.
Later I did read the electrical codes, looked at existing installations and drew up "electrical" wiring diagrams (they can't read schematic-style). Then after manufacturing, an inspector comes by and approves the panels. Or disapproves. I had one 24VDC rail with ATO car fuses on it and they said "no" to that, because the power supply/step-down transformer could short pri-sec and the fuse would then have to clear mains voltages. OK, no prob just change over to DIN rail 5x20mm fuseholders. But it's a learning that you need 250VAC fuses on a 24VDC rail, as an example.

I do P. Eng stamp electrical panel designs now, but sometimes an electrician installing it will phone to clarify anything or I can still get mixed up with a site having "high-leg Delta" and nobody knew.
 
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Offline tszabooTopic starter

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Re: Engineering code of conduct
« Reply #46 on: June 04, 2020, 05:21:21 pm »
I've talked to my managers. We added LVD and VDE to the project requirements, and agreed that an industrial electrical engineer will do the electrical wiring diagram. All good, they were surprisingly receptive to the reasons and didn't put up a fight. Thanks for the advice.

Although, clarification for the people outside the EU:
If you want to sell something in EU, you need to draft a Declaration of Conformity, and state that it confirms to the requirements of CE. The person signing the DoC has the responsibility, to make sure the product is compliant to the harmonized standards, and ultimately the law. While the tasks can be delegated, the responsibility cannot. Which means, that LWYERUP! response is really not appropriate within the EU to this situation.
 

Offline Sal Ammoniac

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Re: Engineering code of conduct
« Reply #47 on: June 04, 2020, 05:42:11 pm »
Ask  your manager if they'd employ an industrial electrician to design electronic circuits.

Or a dermatologist to perform brain surgery. After all, they're both doctors.
"That's not even wrong" -- Wolfgang Pauli
 


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