General > General Technical Chat
Engineering code of conduct
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Mr. Scram:

--- Quote from: Gregg on June 03, 2020, 12:56:55 am ---More details on what is required for this box would be very helpful.

I once had a change order for a large 480 volt 3 phase project dumped on me to provide lead/lag for a number of pumps and fans.  After a couple of hours on the internet I found a company that specialized in such items and called them on the phone and explained that I wanted to talk to one of their engineers before I talked to sales.  After a little explanation, I was able to talk to the right person and emailed a block diagram of what was needed.  Meanwhile I put together spreadsheet with a BOM and estimated labor to do it in house.  The next day I received a quote for the complete panel with a projected lead time and it was about 60% of the estimate I had made.  I took the results to my boss and explained that it would be cheaper and faster to just buy what we needed.

Moral of the story is not to butt heads with management, but gently lead them to the right decision.  I have had more than one manager tell me that they didn’t have to know what their people did; they only had to know how to manage.

--- End quote ---
That's an excellent example of being the solution instead of the problem. That's how you resolve conflicts like a pro.
tszaboo:

--- Quote from: nctnico on June 03, 2020, 04:59:46 pm ---
--- Quote from: NANDBlog on June 03, 2020, 08:29:47 am ---We are not going to do these installations/modifications. So there is the problem, that we dont even have the expertise to make electrical drawings. The engineers here, we make PCBs, not electrical boxes. We dont even know, which standard to bring up. And management's mentality is: If the client havent asked for a standard, it is not required.

--- End quote ---
Perhaps it is a test to see how resourceful the engineering department actually is. Engineers are supposed to come up with solutions. For starters: figure out which standards apply. Look on internet for pointers, call a few companies. My simple solution for these kind of situations is: acquire the knowledge to do the job. An engineer is never done learning.

Edit: Gregg's solutionm (outsourcing) is also a good one but you'll still need to know some basic regulations / requirements to verify the solutions offered is the right one.

--- End quote ---
We did that. We hacked together a proof of concept wiring last week which was working. I helped him, after he asked for my help, thats how I'm even got involved in this. He shared his concerns about the drawing, and other problems.
I dont need to be an electrician to say that the hacked together part is not safe.


--- Quote from: SiliconWizard on June 03, 2020, 05:47:00 pm ---If your management half knows how to deal with CE marking, they will likely tell you that. And if you manage to get something to pass the conformance tests, although not a 100% guarantee that it is well designed, it will be at least a guarantee that it is compliant with the required standards. Now if you never manage (at least in reasonable time) to get something to pass, then OTOH you'll have proven you're not qualified for that.

Of course never ACCEPT to release a design if your management doesn't want to pay for external conformance tests.

But as long as some engineering task doesn't formally require a specific qualification that you don't have, I don't think you can really refuse the job. Just make it clear, as others have said, that you have limited knowledge and experience for this, and that using an external lab for compliance testing won't be optional. That will put all the responsibility in the hands of your manager(s).


--- End quote ---
Due to ATEX we have to constantly deal with CE, certifications and such. Regularly with and ATEX project, all they see is that a paper shows up, a bill from the NoBo, and thats it. It is a nuisance, an inconvenience for them, months of hard work from me. At least this is for the upper management. We couldn't successfully explain, why does intrinsic safety increase the project difficulty.
And of course, they think that there is no ATEX on this product, so no rules apply. We do whatever the hell we want. I'll just simply going to point out, that we can't.
nctnico:

--- Quote from: NANDBlog on June 03, 2020, 09:33:10 pm ---
--- Quote from: nctnico on June 03, 2020, 04:59:46 pm ---
--- Quote from: NANDBlog on June 03, 2020, 08:29:47 am ---We are not going to do these installations/modifications. So there is the problem, that we dont even have the expertise to make electrical drawings. The engineers here, we make PCBs, not electrical boxes. We dont even know, which standard to bring up. And management's mentality is: If the client havent asked for a standard, it is not required.

--- End quote ---
Perhaps it is a test to see how resourceful the engineering department actually is. Engineers are supposed to come up with solutions. For starters: figure out which standards apply. Look on internet for pointers, call a few companies. My simple solution for these kind of situations is: acquire the knowledge to do the job. An engineer is never done learning.

Edit: Gregg's solutionm (outsourcing) is also a good one but you'll still need to know some basic regulations / requirements to verify the solutions offered is the right one.

--- End quote ---
We did that. We hacked together a proof of concept wiring last week which was working. I helped him, after he asked for my help, thats how I'm even got involved in this. He shared his concerns about the drawing, and other problems.
I dont need to be an electrician to say that the hacked together part is not safe.

--- End quote ---
But there must be someone who can tell you what regulations apply. Perhaps Dare consultancy (a safety and EMC consulting / testing lab in the Netherlands) can help you out.
floobydust:
It's three issues:
Heater controller safety - proper sensors and limit switches, controller is wired and configured properly etc.
Electrical safety - proper fusing, wiring, enclosure etc.
Vessel safety - proper pressure relief valve, not an old rusty tank, shutoff valves etc.
(possible HazLoc safety IEC60079)

This "IoT crisis" for many companies has them scrambling to outfit equipment they have no knowledge about, and their team is not qualified to do 100%. The danger is all this stuff outside of your knowledge and expertise, are you now an electrician or vessel or heater expert? Learning is great and fun- but not appropriate where there are safety hazards and this is why mentors exist.
Second danger is management buying on the cheap old equipment and refitting it for a new purpose that it may not be suitable for or is worn out.

There are many specific safety standards for fluid heaters and their controllers, IEC 60730 part 2's for example. Water, oil flammables are different sections.
The danger is if the fluid is overheated, say from a stuck contactor or bad sensor. The hardware and software are to be done a certain way, redundancy, safety limits etc. defined in those standards. I assuming you're using a suitable controller but even then there are specific requirements.

The tank also needs (pressure vessel safety codes) pressure relief valves to avoid explosions, so that is another level of regulatory for the piping and tank. Regular pressure tests, inspections so you don't use a rusty old tank.

For the electrical regulations, you can make the panel yourself and have it inspected. Or give it to an electrical contractor who knows them.
tszaboo:

--- Quote from: floobydust on June 03, 2020, 09:52:28 pm ---It's three issues:
Heater controller safety - proper sensors and limit switches, controller is wired and configured properly etc.

--- End quote ---
We saw from example, that they are using redundant controllers in an AND relay configuration. The controller is replaced with a newer type, that has serial interface. I'm not too concerned about this, we worked with different examples, and saw others implement our device in their electrical boxes. We just never had to do it ourselves.


--- Quote ---Vessel safety - proper pressure relief valve, not an old rusty tank, shutoff valves etc.
(possible HazLoc safety IEC60079)
--- End quote ---
The container is not energized in Hazloc, it is clearly stated. I'm not to concerned about valves or burst discs and such, as that is the container manufacturer's job. I also saw the maintenance schedule, its OK.


--- Quote ---Electrical safety - proper fusing, wiring, enclosure etc.

--- End quote ---
This is the only thing that is being questioned.


--- Quote from: floobydust on June 03, 2020, 09:52:28 pm ---This "IoT crisis" for many companies has them scrambling to outfit equipment they have no knowledge about, and their team is not qualified to do 100%.

--- End quote ---
You are describing my company, one year before I started there.


--- Quote from: nctnico on June 03, 2020, 09:42:23 pm ---But there must be someone who can tell you what regulations apply. Perhaps Dare consultancy (a safety and EMC consulting / testing lab in the Netherlands) can help you out.

--- End quote ---
I'm quite sure there is. We also has a project manager, who is more concerned about me filling out my time sheet,  and organizing sprint reviews, than writing proper project requirements. The agile cancer.
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