Engineering code of conduct

[tszaboo]

I have an ethical dilemma, that I would like your opinion on. There is one particular case that is happening at my company now. I dont want the situation to escalate or to make a precedent.

An electronics engineer (not me) got a task, to design the wiring diagram of an electrical box. It would go in an industrial area, potentially dangerous, so faults are not really tolerable, and this would be copied to a thousand installations. The EE told his manager that he doesn't have the expertise to do it, the manager said that bullshit, they are just electrons and do the task. Or something along those lines, it doesnt matter what was exactly said. We dont have the expertise at the firm to design this, we should hire a consultant to do it.

All I'm seeing here is that in engineering, there is the engineering code of ethics, which is different from country to country, but the ideas of it is constant. First two rules:
1. Engineers shall hold paramount the safety, health and welfare of the public and shall strive to comply with the principles of sustainable development in the performance of their professional duties.
2. Engineers shall perform services only in areas of their competence.
( American Society of Civil Engineers )
What I see here, it is breaking the first two rules. And I will step in, stop whats happening and right this situation. But then again, this could get me or the guy fired if I dont communicate it well, or just seriously harm work relations. On the other hand, if we mess up the wiring, worst case scenarios could mean setting a tank filled with 1000L gasoline on fire.

What would you do? Have you been in a situation like this?

[Mr. Scram]

Just from a practical point of view: who will catch the flak when these products do go up? Will this guy take all responsibility?

[RandallMcRee]

Never been in this situation. I did work at a fault-tolerant hardware company for 20 years. We sold to banks. Millions of dollars on the line. But *no* lives. We took extraordinary measures to test, test, test. QA was paramount.

Personally, I know that I have never designed something right the first time without extensive testing. Even then, mistakes got through.

If lives are involved then another level up in extraordinary measures is needed. So the extensive testing I was referring to above would still be inadequate. If your company does not do this normally then I would suggest that the expertise does not exist in your company.

Just one example--do you have the in-house capability to physically simulate a lightning strike? I'm not sure you actually need to do that, here, but....I do know that storage of flammable materials does need to take such things into account.

If the manager goes ahead with this I would consider going to a lawyer.

[tggzzz]

Interesting, in the sense of the Chinese curse.

I have been in a similar position, but not quite as stark. I have seen others be hit hard. There is no easy solution and multiple approaches should be tried.

Do everything to avoid bypassing the chain of command, until there is no alternative.

Give the managers every opportunity to do the right thing. Let them claim the kudos for doing the right thing. Guide them to realise the corporate and personal consequences of doing the wrong thing. Get them to informally validate your opinions with other competent engineers.

Talk to your peers to calibrate your beliefs, your actions and gain support.

Document everything via emails and contemporary notes, in case lawyers become involved. Use note books with preprinted page numbers.

Try to get external legal advice, possibly through a support mechanism and/or a professional organisation.

If things get nasty, expect the corporate hierarchy to protect itself. Be prepared to take unpleasant decisions based on that.

In my case the corporate culture was such that my manager got another engineer to check and validate my concerns, then made acceptable choices.

Ultimately you can escape many situations, but you can never escape yourself.

[themadhippy]

Ask  your manager if they'd employ an industrial electrician to design electronic circuits.

[T3sl4co1l]

If your contracts say no liability for yourselves, and you've done the CYA documenting who's requesting it and who's responsible (your direct manager and etc.), it shouldn't matter, legally speaking.

As for ethically -- I would think about a range of actions:
- Ask the manager(s) for special authorization and indemnification, stating that this engineering work is provided by undersigned (worker) as-is, no assurances for fitness, safety, regulatory compliance etc., and that undersigned (manager), as a legal representative of (company), takes full responsibility for the project.

(Again, might not mean anything if this is already in your contracts, but interesting to emphasize the weight of the immediate matter.  And if it is, just bringing up and clarifying that section of your contract would do.)

- Elevate.  If (immediate manager) isn't concerned, is (higher up)?  How about corporate?
- Start a petition, get signatures from other engineers in the dept / company / field, agreeing that this is not a great idea, and that at the very least sufficient materials (training, regulations/standards, etc.) be provided, but preferably it be done by someone imminently qualified.
- Report it to relevant safety authorities.  OSHA, uh CSB, whoever.  They will likely take it seriously.  I don't know how exactly they deal with design side issues, but ask around, I'm sure they are very helpful and can provide direction.
- And yeah, asking a lawyer isn't a bad idea.  Their power may not extend very far beyond the law (which, see first options), but lawyers are accountable to their ethical code and you may find they are sympathetic.

Oh, hm, as for a more offensive tactic -- if you can find regulations that show the relevant hardware must be designed by a licensed professional engineer (PE) or something to that effect, that's direct (legal) liability to the company, and corporate will want to see that (and if they turn out disinterested, you know exactly where to go (the PE society) straight after!).

Tim

[RandallMcRee]

Yes, what tggzzz says makes a lot of sense.

Try asking a set of questions to management which makes clear the very different requirements of a circuit (the same circuit) that:
1) is used in home entertainment
2) goes into avionics such as a plane
3) goes into space
4) provides life support to a patient

Each of these is a very different situation and would require vastly different expertise for that same circuit. As well as potentially very different components!

[m98]

Are you even legally allowed to design such systems? Academic qualifications alone don't make you eligible to certify, design or even work on all kinds of electrical stuff. So maybe design the wiring diagram to your best knowledge to make your boss happy, and then tell him that someone with the appropriate qualifications needs to take it from there.

[Bud]

Who will be performing installations of this box on the customer side? I bet it typically be a qualified electrician who may flag the design/drawings as not compliant to the Electric Code of the country of installation. This situation is just begging for troubles for your company and may expose to liabilities.

[tggzzz]

Checking contracts is potentially relevant. I once wrote a contract to develop an X which explicitly stated it we did not guarantee it was suitable for X. The client understood and accepted the contact.

Checking requirements for it to be done by a competent person (in contract, corporate guidelines,  professional obligations) is a useful warning shot across the bows.

Going to an external body is crossing the Rubycon, but might be necessary.

Find out who in the company has most to lose if the worst happens. Ensure they know of your concerns.

Each of those actions will be regarded as hostile by one or more people. With care that might not matter too much.

[engrguy42]

Hold on a minute...a "wiring diagram for an electrical box"? When I read that my first thought is maybe the boss is right.

What are we talking about here? If it's a simple switch box or fuse box then maybe there are enough standards and guides out there that you/he can come up with something. Or if it's a relatively simple and standard installation maybe just copy something that's already out there. Maybe this is a good learning opportunity. Maybe if it's for a specific installation at some industrial customer you can visit there and see how it's done in other, similar electrical boxes. Or grab some existing drawings for the installation and just duplicate what they already have. Or check UL/ANSI/IEEE whatever standards.

Now if it's something complex and custom and definitely takes someone with a ton of experience in that particular field, that's another thing. I'm guessing the company wants to know if it's entering into any risky situations that could result in big troubles in the future, especially if you'd be bypassing any codes/regulations/requirements, etc which would immediately make them liable for damages. That kind of stuff you have an obligation to tell the manager's boss IF IT'S REALLY TRUE. Design and safety standards are there for a reason, so as a minimum I'd do some research to find out the applicable standards/regulations that you'd have to meet (including design/test/etc.) and by doing it internally you'd be bypassing that. Nothing personal against anyone, just the facts.

[Psi]

If the EE does the job he should force his boss to sign a document saying the boss has been told that the EE is very concerned that he lacks sufficient experience to perform this job to the level he feels is required.

Either the boss signs the document or the job doesn't get done.
And if he signs the document you/he has some control over the situation should anything happen in the future.

Of course it DOES depend on the situation.
The EE should NEVER build anything he fells is unsafe, regardless of any signed document. If you build something unsafe it's mostly on you, regardless of the document.
But sometimes it's less about safety and more about not wanting to get fired in the future if something about your work turns out to be wrong.  If you have the signed document you can prove it was wrong because your boss made you do something without enough experience and that you voiced your concerns before doing it.

You can also record a phone convo with him. However laws about that differ between countries.

[bdunham7]

We need to know more about this box.  Is it something a licensed electrician could wire up without any set diagram and they just want to standardize it?  What voltages does it control and what does it do?  Is there a PCB? 

[VK3DRB]

Use email, not speech. So that if it goes to court because someone was injured or killed, the manager is made accountable, not the employee.

[engrguy42]

Geez, guys, don't you think you're going a bit overboard?   

Signing petitions??? Contacting lawyers?? Documenting everything??

Don't you think you should see if there's a problem first?

[AlfBaz]

... a tank filled with 1000L gasoline on fire.

What would you do? Have you been in a situation like this?

Ask for training and standards. Find out what, if any, certification is needed
The area the device is installed needs to be classified. There are varying levels of hazardous zones and this seems like one. There a lot of standards that are mandatory in this field

[floobydust]

Anybody can be an "engineering manager". I've had many managers push me around to design or deploy unsafe equipment. It's a big problem in the profession.

An engineer is supposed to decline any unsafe or outside our expertise work. We have the power to say "NO". A wimp engineer, the "yes man" unfortunately exists to please the boss - steer way clear of them and their projects because one safety transgression leads to another and another and soon it's a minefield.

With HazLoc products and installations, you don't want to be liable for a plant exploding or catching fire, as an engineer or a company. I just refuse to sign off on dangerous stuff and tough cookie to my employer, fuck'em if they won't follow safety standards. Engineers do have a voice, or I'll walk out if they try corrupt my work.

Once an employer had a new grad, fresh engineer-in-training solely do a bunch of HazLoc and electrical work. The Client noticed the drawings were not stamped or formally approved    Boss ran to me demanding I sign off on them. I looked and the designs were unsafe and no way to go backwards as it was already built! So I said "NOPE" and caused a shitstorm. It's not just a formality, getting something signed off. Also, it's to be done before anything is built.
Client really pissed off, as their plant insurance policy is invalid if unknown junk is installed. Client complained, Engineering Association found out, reprimanded and gave a presentation to all the execs explaining how engineering responsibility works. I never heard how they fixed up that mess.
A company's Permit to Practice lists the responsible member who is supposed to sign off on all engineering activities in a company.

P.S. Worked with an ATEX approved product where the Ph.D engineer ran a power cable inside a 4,000L gasoline tank 

[Gregg]

More details on what is required for this box would be very helpful.

I once had a change order for a large 480 volt 3 phase project dumped on me to provide lead/lag for a number of pumps and fans.  After a couple of hours on the internet I found a company that specialized in such items and called them on the phone and explained that I wanted to talk to one of their engineers before I talked to sales.  After a little explanation, I was able to talk to the right person and emailed a block diagram of what was needed.  Meanwhile I put together spreadsheet with a BOM and estimated labor to do it in house.  The next day I received a quote for the complete panel with a projected lead time and it was about 60% of the estimate I had made.  I took the results to my boss and explained that it would be cheaper and faster to just buy what we needed.

Moral of the story is not to butt heads with management, but gently lead them to the right decision.  I have had more than one manager tell me that they didn’t have to know what their people did; they only had to know how to manage. 

[bdunham7]

Maybe if it's for a specific installation at some industrial customer you can visit there and see how it's done in other, similar electrical boxes. Or grab some existing drawings for the installation and just duplicate what they already have.

That would not be engineering.  That would be gross negligence.

The two legal questions I would ask are:

1) Is the work within the scope of the engineers professional license, if licensure is required?

2) If the engineer currently lacks the expertise, can he/she acquire it? IOW, can they learn what is needed to do the job correctly.

Experience is overrated.  Education and training are more important.  Experience will not help you avoid the mistakes that you haven't made yet.  It may make one more comfortable with a job, but that can be a false sense of security.  Copying another installation gives no assurance that you have any idea of what you are actually doing.

[Someone]

If the EE does the job he should force his boss to sign a document saying the boss has been told that the EE is very concerned that he lacks sufficient experience to perform this job to the level he feels is required.

Either the boss signs the document or the job doesn't get done.
And if he signs the document you/he has some control over the situation should anything happen in the future.

Of course it DOES depend on the situation.
The EE should NEVER build anything he fells is unsafe, regardless of any signed document. If you build something unsafe it's mostly on you, regardless of the document.
But sometimes it's less about safety and more about not wanting to get fired in the future if something about your work turns out to be wrong.  If you have the signed document you can prove it was wrong because your boss made you do something without enough experience and that you voiced your concerns before doing it.

You can also record a phone convo with him. However laws about that differ between countries.

REAL WORLD: boss refuses to sign or put anything in writing, and says if you don't complete the task you'll be fired.

Been there done that, walked off the job and left them to it. Wrote a letter explaining the reasons and sent a copy to their legal department pointing out the specific legislation that I refused to break and that I knew they had a management chain who intended to ignore it. Better than possibly going to jail for negligence if anything went wrong.

[CatalinaWOW]

Seems like there needs to be a lot more information to really answer this question.  And it can't really be totally answered.

1.  Just about any circuit, even a simple LED blinker can result in a hazard under some extreme conditions (epileptic user, areas where blinker could be confused with safety markers or guidance flags for examples).  The designer of the circuit cannot be responsible for all possible applications of a design.  And certifications for those worst case applications are not required for every design.

2.  Liability for most hazardous applications are dealt with with a variety of "due diligence" requirements.  Use of or supervision by a licensed engineer is one form of such due diligence.  Compliance with applicable codes is another.  Without knowing more about the "electrical design of a box" and "could become a standard applied over and over" there is no way to know if an established due diligence procedure exists for the application.  There is a very real chance that no one in the world is "qualified".  Or that anyone is if it conforms to a published standard.

3.  My view of engineering ethics would require me to avoid the job if I knew that hazards were involved, if I knew that I didn't understand appropriate mitigation of those hazards, and that I could not learn them and if it was impossible to document the limitations of "due diligence" resulting from my performance of the task. 

4.  Avoiding the job doesn't really get you off the hook.  Lets say you do avoid the job.  You even convince your company to avoid it.  Does your ethical standard require you to go out and assure that no other company takes it on without appropriate expertise?  Without having said expertise how can you determine is someone else does not have it?  Can you define what is missing, or what is necessary?

[Berni]

This is indeed a bit of a sticky situation.

My best advice is to try and make that manager see how big of a deal this is. Get an email going between a few other engineer coworkers about what they think of this (Making it clear to them what this is about beforehand) and then involve the manager on the recipient list. That way there are multiple people backing up his opinion that it is a bad idea and there is a email paper trail that could be useful later on (If this thing ends up escalating and you need to prove to someone else what happened such as higher up management or HR or i sure hope not court). Often management would also want a one on one meeting to discuss such pressing issues, in that case you have nobody to back you up, so id recommend recording such meetings on your phone.

My guess is that after this they would have the engineer do it anyway but also make the engineer find someone who is qualified to check the plans and sign them off (with the management agreeing to pay for that now)

Management can be stubborn sometimes. For non safety critical stupidities i learned its the best to just play is pacifist and do whatever they want, but make sure i have a paper trail for the command to do so and my argument against it. If shit hits the fan they will usually say they never told me to do that, to what i reply with a forward of that email.

[james_s]

I'd want to know much more detailed information about the device in question and the environment in which it was to be used before I made a decision. I wouldn't automatically shy away from it, I mean several years ago I designed, developed a product that works with 6.6A high voltage series streetlighting systems that were once common all over the US. I had no experience developing such products but neither did anyone else who hadn't retired or died years if not decades ago. In the end my hand made prototypes ran in the field in a major US city for over a year before they were replaced with production units. We sold several hundred of the things to cities, oil refineries, military bases and other installations all over the country and most are still in use, not hugely profitable given the small quantity but it was a fun and very educational project and I'd do it again.

The series regulators are anywhere from 5 to 50kVA. A 50kVA 6.6A regulator is a somewhat terrifying device, if you break the circuit while it's live the angry buzzing arc can be drawn out well over a foot. There used to be one other company making competing products and theirs had a reputation for catching fire, to this date none of ours ever have. There are risks in everything, life is a series of calculated risks and in each case you have to weigh the risk vs the potential reward and decide for yourself if it's something you want to jump into. Make sure you find out ahead of time exactly who the responsibility lands on if something goes wrong.

[Psi]

Geez, guys, don't you think you're going a bit overboard?   

Signing petitions??? Contacting lawyers?? Documenting everything??

Don't you think you should see if there's a problem first?

Documenting everything is never going overboard

[Warhawk]

I personally avoid not only things that are illegal but also immoral. From time to time there's a conflict between these two and I value moral behavior more over legal bindings. First, it is great that you came here for an opinion. This shows your high moral standards. 

Most conflicts I've ever been part of were just miscommunication and lack of willingness to understand. Start there. What if this is a critical project for the company and without it they would lay off five people? You may not know. What would you do if this is the case?

• Create a risk assessment. What can happen if the wiring is incorrect, uses improper components or techniques. Be strictly technical.
• Identify what are professional requirements for getting this job done. Any government certifications needed? I bet there are electricians internet forums in you home country.
• Identify who would be personally responsible for an incident. Point a finger at your boss.
• This can be just a single A4 page. Make your manager signing it or send this to him by post mail with delivery confirmation.**
• No job is worth waking up every day knowing that there is a hazardous device you deployed.

** I probably watch Air Crash Investigations (Mayday) TV show too much.