General > General Technical Chat

Engineering Immigration Isn't Working?

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rstofer:

--- Quote from: fourfathom on September 10, 2022, 03:41:07 am ---
--- Quote from: rstofer on September 10, 2022, 12:10:24 am ---[... H1B Visa program ...]

In theory, a company has to get approval and then sponsor the immigrant.  In theory, when the immigrant loses that job, they are supposed to self-deport or get some other company to sponsor them.  In theory, no US citizen is available for the posting and the applicant fills a vital need and, in theory, they are paid the same as locals.  In practice, I suspect it is a good deal different.  Silicon Gulch is filled with H1B immigrants and there is a lot of friction when jobs get scarce.

--- End quote ---

You are probably correct about this, but when I was working in the 1990's at small, growing companies we hired a good number of H1B engineers, and it wasn't because they would work for cheap.

--- End quote ---

In Silicon Gulch, the topic of H1B visas is pretty toxic.  Nearly 3/4 of tech workers in the valley are foreign born according to the Mercury News.  How does that possibly help locals?

https://www.mercurynews.com/2018/01/17/h-1b-foreign-citizens-make-up-nearly-three-quarters-of-silicon-valley-tech-workforce-report-says/

As the article says, it costs around $10k just to sponsor an H1B.  That cost gets paid somehow.  Companies are not in the benevolence business.


fourfathom:

--- Quote from: rstofer on September 10, 2022, 04:54:52 pm ---In Silicon Gulch, the topic of H1B visas is pretty toxic.  Nearly 3/4 of tech workers in the valley are foreign born according to the Mercury News.  How does that possibly help locals?

--- End quote ---
(I'm not arguing with you, just providing some balance based on my time on both sides of the equation, and playing a bit of the Devil's Advocate)

How does it help locals?

* Helping create local companies and helping them succeed, which supports all sorts of local activity
* It wasn't hurting locals because there honestly wasn't enough "local" talent skilled in the fields where we were hiring
* We hire the best we can find, so perhaps this gives "locals" an incentive to up their game?
* BTW, I was a "local".  Hiring great engineers sure helped me in many ways.
I think the solution is for "locals" to get the training and skills needed to be outstanding engineers (or outstanding whatever).  I know I sound like the old geezer I am, but if our best and brightest locals are preparing for the field of video game test and review, or Influencer, or [any other unlikely-to-succeed field] then this is what happens.  I'm not going to hire a bad engineer just because they look like me.

Rick Law:

--- Quote from: fourfathom on September 10, 2022, 03:41:07 am ---
--- Quote from: rstofer on September 10, 2022, 12:10:24 am ---[... H1B Visa program ...]

In theory, a company has to get approval and then sponsor the immigrant.  In theory, when the immigrant loses that job, they are supposed to self-deport or get some other company to sponsor them.  In theory, no US citizen is available for the posting and the applicant fills a vital need and, in theory, they are paid the same as locals.  In practice, I suspect it is a good deal different.  Silicon Gulch is filled with H1B immigrants and there is a lot of friction when jobs get scarce.

--- End quote ---

You are probably correct about this, but when I was working in the 1990's at small, growing companies we hired a good number of H1B engineers, and it wasn't because they would work for cheap.  In our case these were highly-capable people, with skills and experience superior to the few "locals" who we could find.  Often the foreign engineers were former associates of our own engineers, so we knew what they could do.  The interview process was run my the engineering department (with HR participation), and the interviews were technical and deep. This was during times of industry growth, where qualified engineers were hard to find.  The dynamics may be different during down times or in larger companies.

--- End quote ---

One can always find exceptions.  But regardless of whether they are mostly capable or not, it make sense for an industry to maintain a good pipe line of employable local people or the local industry is going to collapse as a local industry.

A company needs a good stable core staff of it's own to maintain it's own core knowledge base for both operations and strategic core competence.  When those strategic core competence are carried by those with no long-term attachment (emotional investment) to the company, the company no longer has a future.  When the operational knowledge base got carried away as well, the company cease to have a present.  Often, it happen sooner than that - when the culture (quality expectations, mode of operations, commitment,... ) that has sustained the company no longer exist, the dying begins.


--- Quote from: rstofer on September 10, 2022, 04:54:52 pm ---... ...
Nearly 3/4 of tech workers in the valley are foreign born according to the Mercury News.  How does that possibly help locals?
... ...
As the article says, it costs around $10k just to sponsor an H1B.  That cost gets paid somehow.  Companies are not in the benevolence business.
... ...

--- End quote ---

They do contribute to the local economy.  Coffee shops, grocery stores, etc., and they do pay tax.  But with no long term commitment to the country or the company... (fill in what you like to finish the sentence.)

Mostly, H1's are used as stepping stone to permanent residency.  Permanent residents is the so called green-card which decades ago turned  pink rather than green in color.  Green-card holders have all the rights of citizen except they can't vote.  There may also be issues with certain jobs such as those defense related ones.

During that H1 to green-card process, they are captive by the company that signed the paper work -- ie:they can't switch employer without starting over.  The H1 visa hold can apply for spouse visa.  The spouse can work any where.  Who pays depends on what deal the employee got.  Those directly hired by the tech companies probably have a better deal.  Those hired by contracting firms (aka: body shops) just to contract them out would get a much lesser deal.

(Depending on who is the White House...)  H1 doesn't mean it will become green-card.  So H1 employees do not normal consider themselves part of the country.  They may have long term hope, but they likely don't have long term commitment.  Not too long ago, you can't even get a mortgage as merely a temporary resident.

Rick Law:

--- Quote from: fourfathom on September 10, 2022, 06:06:50 pm ---...
...
I think the solution is for "locals" to get the training and skills needed to be outstanding engineers (or outstanding whatever).  I know I sound like the old geezer I am, but if our best and brightest locals are preparing for the field of video game test and review, or Influencer, or [any other unlikely-to-succeed field] then this is what happens.  I'm not going to hire a bad engineer just because they look like me.

--- End quote ---

To your last point (last sentence) first, it is not how they look, but how they think.  I prefer to hire people that think different.  If they all look different but think the same, they will not be able to contribute in ways that count most - ideas and work ethics.  Both ideas and work ethics are from the brain which regardless of culture, race, or origin, it is going to be grey.

As to the other points...  I used to think the same as you...    I also used to think it only happens to others (so I thought) until it happened to me...  (and then again, and then again...)

If you have been to a job lost support group, or in a room of over 100 trained, skilled, and experienced but replaced employees all looking for another shot elsewhere, you may feel different.  I also had the sad experience of being one on a panel of advisors.  As "management from established firm" sitting in front of dozens of new college grads looking for advice - good grads, and reasonably bright grads (judging from their questions), but can't get on the first step of the ladder.

You can't have a successful company surrounded by unemployed locals -- Silicon Valley started there because there was a critical mass of educated and trained people right there.  Had Silicon Valley been a valley of unemployed "has been's" with outdated experience, Silicon Valley might well have been elsewhere.

fourfathom:

--- Quote from: Rick Law on September 10, 2022, 06:40:08 pm ---When those strategic core competence are carried by those with no long-term attachment (emotional investment) to the company, the company no longer has a future. [and more good stuff]
--- End quote ---

I agree with everything you have written.

Many of the H1 and Green Card holders we employed ended up becoming full-time residents, with families.  Some later started their own companies, and hired locals as well as other non-locals.  If we provide a good environment for success then good people tend to stick around.  I hope we don't destroy that good environment.

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