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Engineering Immigration Isn't Working?

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CatalinaWOW:
If you want to get talent from another country to immigrate, don't set up a special category (H1B) that doesn't allow immigration and doesn't recognize the social ties that these talented people may have.  Give real, permanent resident status to the gifted resource and spouse and children and presumably the potential of citizenship.  In many cases this talent is a cluster (doesn't matter whether it is genetics or social) so expanding to other near relatives would be a win for the accepting country.

Of course expecting immigration officials to recognize such desirable talents is kind of like asking HR to supply superior talents.  It is theoretically possible, but the reality often falls very short of the theory.

Rick Law:

--- Quote from: CatalinaWOW on April 09, 2024, 11:38:12 pm ---If you want to get talent from another country to immigrate, don't set up a special category (H1B) that doesn't allow immigration and doesn't recognize the social ties that these talented people may have.  Give real, permanent resident status to the gifted resource and spouse and children and presumably the potential of citizenship.  In many cases this talent is a cluster (doesn't matter whether it is genetics or social) so expanding to other near relatives would be a win for the accepting country.

Of course expecting immigration officials to recognize such desirable talents is kind of like asking HR to supply superior talents.  It is theoretically possible, but the reality often falls very short of the theory.

--- End quote ---

Immigration official are not the ones who creates immigration laws, nor do they judge the worth of the applicant's knowledge.  Existing H1B laws of today merely requires that they advertised the job (for a certain duration if enforced) and could not find qualified US citizen (or non citizen already with work permission) for the job.  But -- job requirements can be so readily worded/created that only one person can ever fulfill.  So current requirement (if it is even enforced) at best merely slow down process a bit but cannot stop employers merely looking for a cheap hire.

Even if Congress creates a law to put an employer tax on H1B, congress did not judge the worth of the H1B'er.  The employer did the "worth judging" by offering the H1B a job of $X compensation.  The tax or fee(if done as I suggested) would just be a fixed percentage of that value $X as determined by the employer.

Importing exceptional talent is beneficial to the receiving country.  Importing unexceptional talent for lower cost merely hollows out the industry and turn it into an industry of cheap, unimaginative, and low quality product creator.  It is damaging to the receiving country.  If the employer is not willing to pay extra, it is an indication that the talent isn't worth the extra.

If tech industries continue to use CPA (cheapest price available) methods of purchasing and recruiting, we will just be another creator of junk products.  From all the indicators I can observe, we (the USA) are well on the decline.  I am fearful Idiocracy is already in the making.

shabaz:
Talent will leave and take skills with them if they notice unwelcome rules/atmosphere to others.

No matter how much they want to mix, people will often only want to settle down in an area where there may be at least one or two others from their own background, within a mile radius or whatever.

Repeat that many times, and natural clusters will form, just due to geography and math. Same reason communities of expats naturally form in all countries. Therefore it's an uphill fight against nature if immigration rules are so stringent that only talented are accepted.

In any case, untalented people present in a country (local or immigrant) are happy to work, too - this is why it's normal to see immigrants working (if they can; some are legally forbidden to work) just as much as locals, no matter how low-paid the jobs are, and having to house-share with half a dozen others because rents are so high.

Another example of the disconnect between typical laws and human nature: when things are very unfair to those untalented but trying to get on, it's human nature to always support the underdog (local or immigrant) so that no-one suffers. It's what people do, they stick up for those less capable than themselves, and if financial support is needed then so what. It should be a sign of pride to see people being supported while they visit job/recruitment advisers etc., or free (to the student at the time so that it's one less thing to stress about) higher education. Same with medical aid, should always be free, but different country governments "think different". The laws should be devised to reflect reality (because life is unfair to some, we can't all be permanently healthy, some of us will not be as talented as others), but of course it doesn't, since laws are people-made. "If all men were angels there would be no need for laws" (horribly misquoted, but still there's a lot to think about in that quote which is timeless and could also be applied to doing right with regards to dealing with people).

It's not as if it is significant enough to even be considered by an individual to be their tax money paying for it, since it's just pennies/cents per person. There's so much government waste, plus individuals waste more on half uneaten lunches etc., which is fine, it's their lunch, but clearly two-faced if those same individuals then turn around and complain that their salaries are being depressed or their tax-money is being wasted.

Despite living in a Western country, I've worked for about 10 years for overseas managers, with a completely remote team and occasional visits since firms are so global nowadays. Organizations will always find ways of hiring the people they want, whether that takes lawyers to build their case for bringing in an immigrant, or simply outsource or have remote offices.

Rick Law:

--- Quote from: CatalinaWOW on April 09, 2024, 11:29:55 pm ---
--- Quote from: Rick Law on April 09, 2024, 07:17:14 pm ---...
If the reason for hiring H1B'er is cost to to employer, and I believe it is.  My opinion therefore is "cost is the fix."  An H1B tax/fee for employer (not employee) may solve the problem: 60% to 100% of total compensation including benefits.  The money will be use domestically for scholarships for the fields where H1B is hired.  Starts at 60%, each year, it goes up 20% till it reach 100%.
...

--- End quote ---

The overall idea makes sense.  But it you believe that the way the system works now has limited the supply of domestic engineers, which is at least partly true in my opinion your solution will cause two things - a painful transition and export of jobs.   

Maybe modify it with a graduated kick in, roughly equal to the pipeline delay for domestic talent.   Roughly four to five years.  Start the tax at 15% and grow 15% each year until it reaches your starting point and go  from there.

--- End quote ---

I think that would work too (starts at 15%...) but less effective. 15% is easily fudged -- I like to see something that make the employer re-think it immediately.  May be 30%.  It gotta hurt.

One thing very damaging is the the H1B's filling up the spaces in the first few rungs of the ladder.  Not being able to get on the ladder really damages the new graduate the entire career.  College kids are not competitive upon graduation.  They should have the first shot within their own country -- a place where they, and their parents have been funding by taxation presumably for years already.

If the tax/fee rule is implemented, I would readily accept un-capped H1B, and after say 7 or 10 years with the same employer, they can seek a conversion to permanent resident status.   After all, employer shown they are really to pay this guy 2x the amount for years already.  Yeah, there will be those who hired their brain-dead brother-in-law and pay the fee just to get the brother-in-law a green card.  Additional refinements to the rules will be necessary to catch as many of those abusers as possible.

Rick Law:

--- Quote from: shabaz on April 10, 2024, 02:01:35 am ---...
In any case, untalented people present in a country (local or immigrant) are happy to work, too - this is why it's normal to see immigrants working (if they can; some are legally forbidden to work) just as much as locals, no matter how low-paid the jobs are, and having to house-share with half a dozen others because rents are so high.
...

--- End quote ---
I admit, it is a lost-lost situation.

Mathematics dictates that if current average is 100, and you add more that is below 100, the average will go down.  So if we import "the untalented people happy to work" as you put it, we become less talented on average.  So it is a lost.

On the other hand, if we only import those more talented, we become on average more talented.  But we are taking the talented away from their home land where their talent may be missed.  The so called "brain drain."  So it is lost too.

I am comfortable with a freeze.  You (generic "you", not personal "you") keep your talent, and we keep ours.  We (the whole world) should share knowledge and thus each gain talent in our own pace and in our own place.

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