Engineering Immigration Isn't Working?

[EEVblog]

Look like engineering immigration isn't working in Australia?

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-09-06/engineering-job-vacancies-up-skilled-migrants-under-utilised/101400026

Engineering job vacancies up 176 per cent, while skilled migrants feel overlooked by employers
ABC Pilbara / By Cameron Carr

Karen Huang says being from overseas makes finding skilled employment much more difficult.(ABC News: Amelia Searson)
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New data suggests almost half of migrants actively seeking a job as an engineer are currently unemployed, as job vacancies in the sector rise by 176 per cent.

Key points:
Australia's engineering sector is grappling with a skilled worker shortage
Despite having their qualifications recognised in Australia, migrants are less likely to find jobs compared to their Australian counterparts
A bias against workers not perceived as "local" is considered to be one of the main reasons
The National Skills Commission Labour Market Insights to June 2022 found 47 per cent of the group did not have work, although vacancy numbers in engineering continued to be the highest seen since 2012.

Engineers Australia CEO Romilly Madew said many skilled migrants in Australia could fill these roles but employers were biased against hiring migrants.
"Research shows there is a significant cohort of migrant engineers already in Australia who have long-term difficulties securing employment appropriate to their experience," she said.
"Our research found that employer bias associated with not being 'local' — whether it's experience, networks, standards, references, or qualifications — was the biggest culprit.
"Tapping into this under-utilised talent supply offers one immediate means of easing skills shortages."

Cultural background a factor
Karen Huang said she was not surprised migrants were struggling to find work in the sector.
Ms Huang moved to Australia from Taiwan in 2012 with a university degree and career aspirations.
Like many other skilled immigrants, she could only find work in hospitality.
She has lived in the Pilbara for about four years, surrounded by the country's mining and resources sector, which Prime Minister Anthony Albanese has described as the "engine room of the economy".

Ms Huang, now the chair of the Northwest Multicultural Association, said many members moved to the region to work in the resources sector, but struggled to get a foot in the door, despite being qualified.
"It's very difficult when you come from a non-Australian culture, especially when it comes to interviews," she said.
"Skills are overlooked simply because bosses are concerned you won't fit in with your colleagues."

She said language skills could also be a barrier to employment.
"You can get knocked back from an entry-level job for a grammar mistake in a cover letter. They assume you're uneducated because your English isn't perfect," she said.

Ms Huang said she was hopeful more migrants would be able to find work in engineering and resources.
"I think if you want to do something, just do it, don't limit yourself, if you want to chase it, just keep trying, even if it take maybe hundreds of times or thousands of times, you'll get there," she said.
Experience not valued Engineers Australia is the federal government's approved authority to assess skills and competencies for the engineering profession.

Ms Madew said the organisation ran a migrant skill assessment to test people looking to become engineers.
"We're looking to see if their overseas qualifications and skills are comparative to the requirements of being an engineer in Australia," she said.

A woman with silver hair, wearing a pink blazer, smiles at the camera
Romilly Madew says poor hiring practices result in skilled migrants being overlooked.(Supplied)
After completing these programs, migrants can prove to employers that overseas studies and industry experience qualifies them to work in skilled professions.

Participants also satisfy English competency standards to confirm their language skills are up to scratch.
But even when there was recognition of prior learning and work, migrants who have completed these courses overwhelmingly said their international experience was not valued or was overlooked.
Ms Madew believed employers held an unconscious bias towards hiring non-Australians.
"Once the migration skills assessment is done, their experience and attributes should be recognised, but there is definitely a bias there," she said.
"It comes back to an idea that since they don't have local experience or networks that they won't succeed in the Australian workforce."
The ABC reached out to major resources and mining employers, which said they were committed to fair work and hiring practices.

[SiliconWizard]

Yeah, dunno. As an Australian, what do you think about that?

As to the article uh. It's a lot of words for not saying much at all. Looks like typical woke stuff, which is pretty much all that mainstream media can spit out these days.

What if they actually tried to address the matter? That is 1. Why there is a shortage of engineers and what we can do about it (maybe not *just* resorting to "migrants", whatever that really means these days), and 2. As to migrants, maybe there are yet other factors here that were conveniently not listed. The article is assuming that all people that were counted in those stats are all "skilled". Whatever that really means.

Finally, 3. Maybe those figures are also misleading?

[Someone]

Yeah, dunno. As an Australian, what do you think about that?

As to the article uh. It's a lot of words for not saying much at all. Looks like typical woke stuff, which is pretty much all that mainstream media can spit out these days.

What if they actually tried to address the matter? That is 1. Why there is a shortage of engineers and what we can do about it (maybe not *just* resorting to "migrants", whatever that really means these days), and 2. As to migrants, maybe there are yet other factors here that were conveniently not listed. The article is assuming that all people that were counted in those stats are all "skilled". Whatever that really means.

Finally, 3. Maybe those figures are also misleading?

Businesses were required to advertise and "fail" to find a local to take a role before they could obtain the justification to bring over an immigrant...

advertising for senior roles at entry level rates of pay! "why cant we find anyone fill this role" lol. Hire that desperate immigrant who doesnt know what the cost of living is over here, after a few years and gaining permanent status that immigrant also wants pay that matches the locals. More immigration will just continue driving down engineering salaries and exploiting the people brought over to do the roles.

[EEVblog]

Yeah, dunno. As an Australian, what do you think about that?

I smell BS going on somewhere here.
The majority of employers are not going to turn down the opportunity to employe a suitably qualified immigrant who will most likely work for less pay than a citizen.
Of course electronics is a very different field to other fields of engineering like construction, cival, mechnical, and even power/electrical.

[EEVblog]

advertising for senior roles at entry level rates of pay! "why cant we find anyone fill this role" lol. Hire that desperate immigrant who doesnt know what the cost of living is over here, after a few years and gaining permanent status that immigrant also wants pay that matches the locals. More immigration will just continue driving down engineering salaries and exploiting the people brought over to do the roles.

I'm sure there is a lot of that.

One thing a lot of people overseas don't understand is that aussie don't like to move their city for work (or education). Heck, many won't move within a city. So makes it harder to find people here. Immigrants are more likely to move to where the jobs are though.

[Rick Law]

Yeah, dunno. As an Australian, what do you think about that?

I smell BS going on somewhere here.
The majority of employers are not going to turn down the opportunity to employe a suitably qualified immigrant who will most likely work for less pay than a citizen.
Of course electronics is a very different field to other fields of engineering like construction, cival, mechnical, and even power/electrical.

I suspect BS also.  In the USA, employers are always saying "too many job opening, not enough applicants..." yet new local college graduates in the exact same field couldn't get a job.   With whatever "push" industries use to drive the politicians, the gate opens wider and wider.  That had gone on for years.  By now, in many fields here, English is a foreign language.

...Businesses were required to advertise and "fail" to find a local to take a role before they could obtain the justification to bring over an immigrant...

USA had the same rule for "skilled labor" (such as IT professionals, programmers, nurses and doctors...) work visas -- employers were suppose to advertise the job for a number of months and demonstrate to the immigration authority that no (legal US citizens or legal US work visa/status) qualified candidate applied.  Only when that is proven can the H1B work visa application move forward.  Now H1B's are handed out like candies, and I see more and more friends/colleagues laid off...

[magic]

How are those "migrants" even living in Australia if they are unemployed?
Are you guys paying for that much deadweight?

Or are we talking undeportable "humanitarian migrants" who self-identify as engineers

[YurkshireLad]

If they're looking for software people, sign me up! 

[Warpspeed]

Big difference between qualifications and experience.

Private companies are looking for engineers that can actually do successful things. 
You are highly likely to be interviewed by the company owner that is an engineer himself. 
He is going to be far more impressed by a long string of prior successful projects he may know something about, and a frank discussion about his projects and the problems you may be expected to solve.
Just fronting up with a piece of paper in your hand from a school, may not cut it in his eyes.

The public service is totally different.  You will be interviewed by some non technical office person from the HR department. 
They are likely to be really impressed if you are from an ethnic minority, are woke, and look a bit odd. 
A degree in gender studies, or political science, would be perfect for a non technical engineering supervisory position.

[vk6zgo]

Big difference between qualifications and experience.

Private companies are looking for engineers that can actually do successful things. 
You are highly likely to be interviewed by the company owner that is an engineer himself. 
He is going to be far more impressed by a long string of prior successful projects he may know something about, and a frank discussion about his projects and the problems you may be expected to solve.
Just fronting up with a piece of paper in your hand from a school, may not cut it in his eyes.

The public service is totally different.  You will be interviewed by some non technical office person from the HR department. 
They are likely to be really impressed if you are from an ethnic minority, are woke, and look a bit odd. 
A degree in gender studies, or political science, would be perfect for a non technical engineering supervisory position.

In larger companies, there are very few Engineers in management positions, the default being  people with MBAs, who treat their Engineering & Technical staff like a "bloody nuisance"!
The choice of job applicants then devolves to the HR Dept, who haven't the slightest clue about most of the jobs they are interviewing people for.

Another thing is that, in the past, students who come to Australia to study subjects which for some reason or other were difficult to get into in their home countries, normally returned home & placed their new skills at the service of their homeland.

Rightly or wrongly, the perception is that graduates these days don't want to go home, & will try to find work in Australia.
Those that do fit this stereotype are in direct competion with those who have migrated in the usual way, & tend to colour perceptions of all "foreigners".

In my last job before retirement, when I wanted to leave, I was involved in interviews of my replacement.

I at least managed to prevent them from advertising for an "Engineer", as the job was really that of a "Technical Officer", but we were still besieged with applications from recent graduate EEs, almost all from the PRC, with really serious engineering qualifications, but not a clue about the core skills required for the job.

OK, given time, they would have learnt the "hands on" stuff, but time was not a common commodity!
In any case, it would be wasting the stuff they had learnt.

I think that in the PRC, EEs, particularly those working for the smaller enterprises survive on a "gig" basis, as the company we bought some of our most vital equipment from seemed to have "lost contact" with the EEs who designed the stuff, less than a year previously.
Sort of "rent an EE!".

[vk6zgo]

How are those "migrants" even living in Australia if they are unemployed?
Are you guys paying for that much deadweight?

Or are we talking undeportable "humanitarian migrants" who self-identify as engineers

Probably working as Baristas!
We are looking to a "coffee fed recovery!"

[CatalinaWOW]

USA had the same rule for "skilled labor" (such as IT professionals, programmers, nurses and doctors...) work visas -- employers were suppose to advertise the job for a number of months and demonstrate to the immigration authority that no (legal US citizens or legal US work visa/status) qualified candidate applied.  Only when that is proven can the H1B work visa application move forward.  Now H1B's are handed out like candies, and I see more and more friends/colleagues laid off...

I haven't paid attention for a while, but the classic ad, posted widely so that the immigration people could see they tried was something like:  "Wanted BS or MS degree with 3-5 years experience in (enter highly detailed work experience - something like design of aviation band RF front ends for comm gear in commercial airlines) with a modest to low ball salary range." 

Written to specifically get a soon to graduate grad student who could use his TA/research work for the experience.  Only a few people in the world would meet the qualification and only the starving grad student would be interested in the salary.

That seems to have reduced here as the jobs are exported rather than importing the engineers.

[Rick Law]

First, I agree with you CatalinaWOW:

Prior to retirement, I used to look at job ads regularly to keep informed about what skills may be I should bone up on just in case.  Yeah, the "immigration job ads" are easy to spot.  There is always some odd requirements that begs the question: "Why on earth do they need that for that job."

Now as to general view:

I actually am supportive of highly educated people staying where they want.  If their educated skills are desirable and above average at their desired residence, they are bring that place up.  When they became experienced and ambitious, some return to their home country and built their career and their home country up.  Way back around the time when home broad-band internet was just becoming popular, I recalled reading about how returning Koreans helped drove Korea's transition into a high tech power house.  Korea can't be alone in experiencing that.  But, and this is a big BUT, what would be the gauge? College degree used to be a good indicator of education, now it is merely a credential instead of proof of a real education.

If tech hires continue to be price-driven and movements are all price based, new arrivals are but clogging up the field, taking away the first few steps of the ladder from the locals.  Once that occurs, better but not top local candidates can't get in.  Now we are left with a two tier system.  The top and then the bottom feeders with very little in between.  Salaries (plus perks) will be > 100% difference.  My kid graduated from college not so long ago.  That is what my kid found (at least here in the USA).

Even lost of un-skilled and/or non-tech has a big negative impact.  Painting houses, doing people's lawns, working in a factory or a warehouse counting inventory...  Those used to be summer or part-time jobs for college kids.  Now college kids use their student loans for travel and "experience the world", missing the opportunity and experience to lean the discipline in making a living and the true meaning of being a productive citizen.  More and more bottom feeders are being created every day.

Could a hi-tech society even exist with just a few percent of real creative minds, then the rest are all just hands -- merely finishing up grunt jobs.  I am not optimistic but I wish I am wrong in this case.

EDIT:  Typo correction only.

[rstofer]

As everybody knows, the US has the H1B Visa program for skilled workers and models of distinguished merit and ability.  That's how Melania Trump got here!

First sentence in Overview here:

https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/immigration/h1b

In theory, a company has to get approval and then sponsor the immigrant.  In theory, when the immigrant loses that job, they are supposed to self-deport or get some other company to sponsor them.  In theory, no US citizen is available for the posting and the applicant fills a vital need and, in theory, they are paid the same as locals.  In practice, I suspect it is a good deal different.  Silicon Gulch is filled with H1B immigrants and there is a lot of friction when jobs get scarce.

I have always thought that the US should import every applicant with an MS or PhD - raid the brain trust, we can find something for them to do.  Make it easy for smart people to come here and prosper.

ETA:  Maybe limit it to STEM, we need more of those candidates!

When I lived and worked in Singapore, I had a 'green card' stapled to my passport.  Oddly, it seemed to expedite my passage through Customs into Singapore.  In any event, it was never a big deal to anybody.  Everybody knew I was leaving when the job was complete.  What a great place to live and work!

[fourfathom]

[... H1B Visa program ...]

In theory, a company has to get approval and then sponsor the immigrant.  In theory, when the immigrant loses that job, they are supposed to self-deport or get some other company to sponsor them.  In theory, no US citizen is available for the posting and the applicant fills a vital need and, in theory, they are paid the same as locals.  In practice, I suspect it is a good deal different.  Silicon Gulch is filled with H1B immigrants and there is a lot of friction when jobs get scarce.

You are probably correct about this, but when I was working in the 1990's at small, growing companies we hired a good number of H1B engineers, and it wasn't because they would work for cheap.  In our case these were highly-capable people, with skills and experience superior to the few "locals" who we could find.  Often the foreign engineers were former associates of our own engineers, so we knew what they could do.  The interview process was run my the engineering department (with HR participation), and the interviews were technical and deep. This was during times of industry growth, where qualified engineers were hard to find.  The dynamics may be different during down times or in larger companies.

[rstofer]

[... H1B Visa program ...]

In theory, a company has to get approval and then sponsor the immigrant.  In theory, when the immigrant loses that job, they are supposed to self-deport or get some other company to sponsor them.  In theory, no US citizen is available for the posting and the applicant fills a vital need and, in theory, they are paid the same as locals.  In practice, I suspect it is a good deal different.  Silicon Gulch is filled with H1B immigrants and there is a lot of friction when jobs get scarce.

You are probably correct about this, but when I was working in the 1990's at small, growing companies we hired a good number of H1B engineers, and it wasn't because they would work for cheap.

In Silicon Gulch, the topic of H1B visas is pretty toxic.  Nearly 3/4 of tech workers in the valley are foreign born according to the Mercury News.  How does that possibly help locals?

https://www.mercurynews.com/2018/01/17/h-1b-foreign-citizens-make-up-nearly-three-quarters-of-silicon-valley-tech-workforce-report-says/

As the article says, it costs around $10k just to sponsor an H1B.  That cost gets paid somehow.  Companies are not in the benevolence business.

[fourfathom]

In Silicon Gulch, the topic of H1B visas is pretty toxic.  Nearly 3/4 of tech workers in the valley are foreign born according to the Mercury News.  How does that possibly help locals?

(I'm not arguing with you, just providing some balance based on my time on both sides of the equation, and playing a bit of the Devil's Advocate)

How does it help locals?

• Helping create local companies and helping them succeed, which supports all sorts of local activity
• It wasn't hurting locals because there honestly wasn't enough "local" talent skilled in the fields where we were hiring
• We hire the best we can find, so perhaps this gives "locals" an incentive to up their game?
• BTW, I was a "local".  Hiring great engineers sure helped me in many ways.

I think the solution is for "locals" to get the training and skills needed to be outstanding engineers (or outstanding whatever).  I know I sound like the old geezer I am, but if our best and brightest locals are preparing for the field of video game test and review, or Influencer, or [any other unlikely-to-succeed field] then this is what happens.  I'm not going to hire a bad engineer just because they look like me.

[Rick Law]

[... H1B Visa program ...]

In theory, a company has to get approval and then sponsor the immigrant.  In theory, when the immigrant loses that job, they are supposed to self-deport or get some other company to sponsor them.  In theory, no US citizen is available for the posting and the applicant fills a vital need and, in theory, they are paid the same as locals.  In practice, I suspect it is a good deal different.  Silicon Gulch is filled with H1B immigrants and there is a lot of friction when jobs get scarce.

You are probably correct about this, but when I was working in the 1990's at small, growing companies we hired a good number of H1B engineers, and it wasn't because they would work for cheap.  In our case these were highly-capable people, with skills and experience superior to the few "locals" who we could find.  Often the foreign engineers were former associates of our own engineers, so we knew what they could do.  The interview process was run my the engineering department (with HR participation), and the interviews were technical and deep. This was during times of industry growth, where qualified engineers were hard to find.  The dynamics may be different during down times or in larger companies.

One can always find exceptions.  But regardless of whether they are mostly capable or not, it make sense for an industry to maintain a good pipe line of employable local people or the local industry is going to collapse as a local industry.

A company needs a good stable core staff of it's own to maintain it's own core knowledge base for both operations and strategic core competence.  When those strategic core competence are carried by those with no long-term attachment (emotional investment) to the company, the company no longer has a future.  When the operational knowledge base got carried away as well, the company cease to have a present.  Often, it happen sooner than that - when the culture (quality expectations, mode of operations, commitment,... ) that has sustained the company no longer exist, the dying begins.

... ...
Nearly 3/4 of tech workers in the valley are foreign born according to the Mercury News.  How does that possibly help locals?
... ...
As the article says, it costs around $10k just to sponsor an H1B.  That cost gets paid somehow.  Companies are not in the benevolence business.
... ...

They do contribute to the local economy.  Coffee shops, grocery stores, etc., and they do pay tax.  But with no long term commitment to the country or the company... (fill in what you like to finish the sentence.)

Mostly, H1's are used as stepping stone to permanent residency.  Permanent residents is the so called green-card which decades ago turned  pink rather than green in color.  Green-card holders have all the rights of citizen except they can't vote.  There may also be issues with certain jobs such as those defense related ones.

During that H1 to green-card process, they are captive by the company that signed the paper work -- ie:they can't switch employer without starting over.  The H1 visa hold can apply for spouse visa.  The spouse can work any where.  Who pays depends on what deal the employee got.  Those directly hired by the tech companies probably have a better deal.  Those hired by contracting firms (aka: body shops) just to contract them out would get a much lesser deal.

(Depending on who is the White House...)  H1 doesn't mean it will become green-card.  So H1 employees do not normal consider themselves part of the country.  They may have long term hope, but they likely don't have long term commitment.  Not too long ago, you can't even get a mortgage as merely a temporary resident.

[Rick Law]

...
...
I think the solution is for "locals" to get the training and skills needed to be outstanding engineers (or outstanding whatever).  I know I sound like the old geezer I am, but if our best and brightest locals are preparing for the field of video game test and review, or Influencer, or [any other unlikely-to-succeed field] then this is what happens.  I'm not going to hire a bad engineer just because they look like me.

To your last point (last sentence) first, it is not how they look, but how they think.  I prefer to hire people that think different.  If they all look different but think the same, they will not be able to contribute in ways that count most - ideas and work ethics.  Both ideas and work ethics are from the brain which regardless of culture, race, or origin, it is going to be grey.

As to the other points...  I used to think the same as you...    I also used to think it only happens to others (so I thought) until it happened to me...  (and then again, and then again...)

If you have been to a job lost support group, or in a room of over 100 trained, skilled, and experienced but replaced employees all looking for another shot elsewhere, you may feel different.  I also had the sad experience of being one on a panel of advisors.  As "management from established firm" sitting in front of dozens of new college grads looking for advice - good grads, and reasonably bright grads (judging from their questions), but can't get on the first step of the ladder.

You can't have a successful company surrounded by unemployed locals -- Silicon Valley started there because there was a critical mass of educated and trained people right there.  Had Silicon Valley been a valley of unemployed "has been's" with outdated experience, Silicon Valley might well have been elsewhere.

[fourfathom]

When those strategic core competence are carried by those with no long-term attachment (emotional investment) to the company, the company no longer has a future. [and more good stuff]

I agree with everything you have written.

Many of the H1 and Green Card holders we employed ended up becoming full-time residents, with families.  Some later started their own companies, and hired locals as well as other non-locals.  If we provide a good environment for success then good people tend to stick around.  I hope we don't destroy that good environment.

[mag_therm]

When those strategic core competence are carried by those with no long-term attachment (emotional investment) to the company, the company no longer has a future. [and more good stuff]

I agree with everything you have written.

Many of the H1 and Green Card holders we employed ended up becoming full-time residents, with families.  Some later started their own companies, and hired locals as well as other non-locals.  If we provide a good environment for success then good people tend to stick around.  I hope we don't destroy that good environment.

Yes,I did that,took the opportunity to get out of Australia, came to USA on L1B visa (specialist intra-company).

Later started the business, became citizen.
In my experience, conditions were much more favorable in USA compared to Australia for engineers and business owners.
 
Don't know if that will always be the case, however I think engineering was in decline in Australia particularly since the automotive industry failed back in 1990s.
Post WW2 Australia had electronics, agri-machinery, automotive manufacturing industries, steel and paper etc, but they mostly declined except for mining.

[fourfathom]

[...] good grads, and reasonably bright grads (judging from their questions), but can't get on the first step of the ladder.

This is a sad observation, and no doubt true.  We, as engineers, should ask ourselves why this is the case.  Has engineering become essentially unskilled labor, where we are replaceable cogs in the machine and "cost to employ" is the main factor by which we are judged? This has not been my experience, but perhaps things have changed in the last 20 years.  And/or perhaps some companies or industries are more sensitive to employee costs than they are to employee productivity.  I'm sure that all these factors vary by industry sector. 

But if this is the direction we are heading, what can we do about it?  This is not a rhetorical question -- how can a someone who wants to be an engineer attain a satisfying career?  How can a current engineer avoid being left behind on the scrap heap?

FWIW I have seen what looks like racism or culturism, or something similar, but in those cases it was in Si Valley companies run by Indian-heritage people.  But we all have a group of associates and friends, and we naturally draw from that pool first. No doubt the "good old white boy" network works the same way -- in my last company I hired many good "local" people who I knew and had worked with and trusted, and many of them looked like me.  But my boss was Indian descent, and our main ASIC designer was a Vietnamese refugee via Australia and Canada, who we had previously hired on the recommendation of another Vietnamese engineer (who later was founder of another local company.)  Hell, we even had a few Frenchmen.

[AndyBeez]

Define "qualified"? Australia has a lot of state level qualifications and certifications that even the most experienced migrant engineers must attain. Which is a big surprise for ex-pats who, might have arrived with a sense of entitlement in the land of milk and honey/flies. Because that's what the Insta brochure suggested. It comes down to, you maybe experienced over there mate, but here you're the newbie.

Anyway, there is nothing to stop Australia from exporting it's vacancies to more qualified staff in China. It's what British and American companies have been doing for decades.

[coppice]

We, as engineers, should ask ourselves why this is the case.  Has engineering become essentially unskilled labor, where we are replaceable cogs in the machine and "cost to employ" is the main factor by which we are judged?

There has always been a conflict in industry where good engineers are massively more effective than poor ones, and hard to find, but HR departments put their fingers in their ears and scream when faced with this reality.

[fourfathom]

We, as engineers, should ask ourselves why this is the case.  Has engineering become essentially unskilled labor, where we are replaceable cogs in the machine and "cost to employ" is the main factor by which we are judged?

There has always been a conflict in industry where good engineers are massively more effective than poor ones, and hard to find, but HR departments put their fingers in their ears and scream when faced with this reality.

When a company started to be run by HR was usually when I quit.  I'm probably lucky that Hewlett Packard didn't hire me when I was interviewing for my first tech job.  It was still a great place back then and I would have likely stuck around for a very long time and missed a lot of career growth and learning experiences.  Never get too comfortable, it's not healthy.