Engineers told to prove qualifications in Victoria and Queensland

[EEVblog]

http://www.afr.com/business/construction/engineers-told-to-prove-qualifications-in-victoria-and-queensland-20180306-h0x2n2

Global construction groups are expected to be more confident about hiring local engineers as Victoria joins Queensland in requiring mandatory qualification checks, potentially saving hundreds of million dollars annually by reducing the numbers of botched projects.

Victoria's Labor government unveiled the details of a new Engineers Registration Bill on Wednesday with a second reading in parliament after introducing the bill on Tuesday.

Engineering is one of the few professions in Australia that does not require formal qualification checks or licenses in most states, allowing anyone to call themselves an engineer. Only Queensland demands mandatory registration.

Professional bodies have been pushing for mandatory registration for years to ensure that only suitably qualified people can work on construction and infrastructure projects. Concerns have been previously raised about projects with poor engineering oversight, such as the Esso Longford gas explosion in Victoria in 1998.

"There is an infrastructure boom in Victoria at the moment and taxpayers spend a huge amount on infrastructure, and it's very important that this legislation is passed because we want the very best engineers working on these projects across the state," said Alesha Printz, the Victorian president of industry body Engineers Australia.

A 2012 ACIL Tasman report on the economic case for registering engineers nationally argued that $207 million annually could be saved if one percent fewer engineering projects each year were "botched."

The increasingly globalised nature of engineering as international companies like Grupo ACS (which owns CIMIC), Acciona, Ferrovial, Bouygues, Ghella, and Salini Impregilo establish or buy businesses in Australia and build multi-billion dollar road and rail projects has also encouraged the Victorian government to push for stronger regulation.

Chris Walton, chief executive of the Association of Professional Engineers, said using non-engineers on projects could hurt the conception, development and delivery of infrastructure.

"We saw the worst of this in Christchurch five years ago when the CTV building collapsed killing 115 people – a building which was planned by a fake engineer," Mr Walton said.

If the Victorian bill is passed as expected later this year, anyone working in the state and calling themselves an engineer will need to be registered or working under the supervision of a registered engineer, who will be required to have a 4-year university degree and at least five years of professional experience as well as ongoing audits of professional development.

"There are absolutely people who are passing themselves off as engineers that aren't appropriately qualified," said Glen Crawley, registrar of professional standards at Engineers Australia.

Victorian Treasurer Tim Pallas said the new registration scheme would boost standards in the engineering industry.

Engineers Australia has a voluntary national register available online, with some 18,000 names currently listed. But Victoria alone is estimated to have more than 90,000 engineers.

Ms Printz said the proposed changes would "cut the red tape" in terms of hiring engineers, because companies will be able to quickly check professional qualifications.

Registering engineers would also "raise the bar" for the engineering profession and improve financial accountability and safety on projects, she said.

Blair Stratton, Victorian manager of RED Fire Engineers, said he was hopeful the bill, if enacted, would sort out "grey areas" in the profession, such as how much a draftsperson could do in terms of engineering calculations and design and how much a building surveyor could do.

Legislation could also prevent less qualified builders and contractors choosing "the cheapest route possible" on projects, such as using flammable cladding on buildings, he said.

Western Australia and ACT are also considering introducing mandatory registration requirements.

While some engineers working on small residential construction projects are required to be registered under Victoria's Building Act, engineers working on larger projects are not required to register.

Queensland has some 12,600 people registered with the state's board of professional engineers.

Many other countries require engineers to be registered, including New Zealand, the USA, Canada, Singapore, and Japan.

Engineers hired from overseas work in Australia on 457 visas also do not currently have to undergo independent reviews, with employers deciding on their suitability.

Translation: Engineers Australia wants to be important and control it all by government decree. Good luck getting EE's on board, who mostly want nothing to do with EA.

[tpowell1830]

I love it when I see an article regarding regulations for the USA, especially from other countries. The fact is that most people don't seem to realize about the USA is that the country is made up of 50 states and the states are regulatory for most such things. I can tell you that engineers are not required to have a PE in my state, however, the lead or chief engineer of a construction project is required to have the PE.

But, to rant on about regulations, sometimes (often) regulations vary from district to district.

Apologize for the rant...

[tszaboo]

Qualification check is quite usual in the EU. All the jobs I applied for requested a scan of my Uni. degree.
Probably there is a big database, where all the degrees are entered. If you have to register, and pay a subscription or something (reasonable amount), I wouldn't have a problem with that. Imagine, that there would be a common platform, where you could inform all relevant engineers if there is a change in some regulation. Push notification, instead of pulling.

[jeremy]

Qualification check is quite usual in the EU. All the jobs I applied for requested a scan of my Uni. degree.
Probably there is a big database, where all the degrees are entered. If you have to register, and pay a subscription or something (reasonable amount), I wouldn't have a problem with that. Imagine, that there would be a common platform, where you could inform all relevant engineers if there is a change in some regulation. Push notification, instead of pulling.

I don’t think that is a “qualification check” in this context unfortunately. The universities do have a system here that allows an employer to check for the validity of a degree.

In Queensland (where I am), it is called RPEQ. I’ve not done it myself, but it involves paying money regularly (incl after you have it), writing a journal to examined, “continuous professional development” courses (150hrs every 3 years) and something like a 3-5 years of working before you can apply. It doesn’t have anything to do with the University, just a non-profit group called Engineers Australia who manages stuff as per the law.

I agree with Dave though, I’ve literally never heard anyone bring it up outside of construction/mining/infrastructure firms, and predominantly for civil engineers. Even then, ive been told that they just have a handful of guys with it at the top who just get paid more to sign off on everything. It’s really just a tick the box thing.

If I was to put my cynical sunglasses on, I would say that it is accepted by the big mining companies and the like because it raises the barrier of entry for smaller competitors. I’m sure if they didn’t want it, it would already be gone.

As far as I’m concerned, EEs should ignore all of this and instead give their money to IEEE as thanks for producing standards. IEEE Xplore is pretty good too.

[EEVblog]

As far as I’m concerned, EEs should ignore all of this and instead give their money to IEEE as thanks for producing standards.

Yes. I'm a member of the IEEE, but not the IEA. Was only ever a student member of the IEA way back.
I know many EE's who were in the IEA but gave it up as it didn't provide any value at all. The only EE's who seem to still be in it are the management consulting types who like to collect fancy letters after their name.
No one in the practical EE industry in oz actually gives a rats about he IEA or their membership, except for perhaps people in the power distribution industry or fields like that maybe. Even strict industries like medical advise some jobs as "eligible for membership of the IEA", they don't actually expect you to be a member, or that you become a member, just "eligible", like it's just sort of HR bar to pass.
Of the thousands of resumes I've looked at over the years, it was maybe only a handful that said they were a member.

Maybe I should set up a rival professional membership society, the EEV Institute. Bring a project to the interview and a bunch of grey beards rub their beards and say "You're in".

[amspire]

I did my degree back in the mid 1970's. Do I have to dig up proof that I passed a programming course for a Motorola 6800, and that I can write a simple program in Fortran on computer cards? Or that I can use a slide rule and log tables?

That will really improve the Engineering standards in Australia. The current state of 6800 programming in Australia is rubbish.

In fact, we better wipe out everything done by James Clerk Maxwell - he wasn't an engineer.

Dave, we definitely need the EEV Institute!

[rstofer]

In California, the process for becoming a Professional Engineer is rather formal and involves testing.  A diploma and CV won't get it done.

First, there is the Engineer-In-Training exam that covers engineering fundamentals.  This can be taken in the 3rd year of undergrad and, in my view, is tailored for Civil Engineer students.  It certainly is difficult for the Electronic Engineering students.  We just don't cover enough material that the Board of Examiners considers mandatory.  Not to worry, there are review classes at many state universities.

It is fun to watch the candidates bring in books - on a hand truck, dozens of books - in an attempt to get through the exam.  Hint:  If you need more than one or two books, you aren't going to pass.  When I took it, there were people making their 5th and 6th attempts.  You will see them in the review courses as well.  I promised myself that if I failed the exam, I would never take it again!  It's gruesome for electronics types.  I did pass - back in '76

Anyway, upon graduation and passing the EIT exam, you work in the field at the direction of another PE for 4 years.  After that, given a letter of recommendation, you can take the Professional Engineer test.  This will be much more focused than the EIT exam.  But still, electrical tends to focus on utilities, generation and distribution.  There used to be one Fortran question but I don't think the exam covers Maxwell's Equations.  In any event, upon passing the exam, you can join the society and become a Registered Professional Engineer (PE).

I don't know of very many Electronics Engineers that go this route because it is technically only required for engineering involving public safety.  Civil, Structural, Electrical, Mechanical and perhaps a couple of other professions.

Each state will have its own procedures and there probably isn't a lot of reciprocity.  I suspect an engineer needs to take the exam in each state where they perform work but I don't know that.

[BillB]

Agree with the above.  My school required that we at least take the EIT exam in order to graduate (I don't actually even remember if we needed to pass or not).  Given that us non-Power EE types didn't need PE licensing, I put little effort into it.  Frankly, I vaguely remember being hungover at the exam, I brought a book or two, didn't prep for squat.  A few months later I was shocked to receive my EIT certificate in the mail!  I passed, just barely. 

I would think that an EEV Institute certification would require a teardown.  You can only show up with 1 flat blade screwdriver.

[rstofer]

Agree with the above.  My school required that we at least take the EIT exam in order to graduate (I don't actually even remember if we needed to pass or not).  Given that us non-Power EE types didn't need PE licensing, I put little effort into it.  Frankly, I vaguely remember being hungover at the exam, I brought a book or two, didn't prep for squat.  A few months later I was shocked to receive my EIT certificate in the mail!  I passed, just barely. 

I would think that an EEV Institute certification would require a teardown.  You can only show up with 1 flat blade screwdriver.

I took 2 weeks vacation and crammed out of a study book.  I also took a review class at Cal State LA (I think...).  And, like you, I barely passed.  But passing is a binary kind of thing, you do or you don't.

[BillB]

Agree with the above.  My school required that we at least take the EIT exam in order to graduate (I don't actually even remember if we needed to pass or not).  Given that us non-Power EE types didn't need PE licensing, I put little effort into it.  Frankly, I vaguely remember being hungover at the exam, I brought a book or two, didn't prep for squat.  A few months later I was shocked to receive my EIT certificate in the mail!  I passed, just barely. 

I would think that an EEV Institute certification would require a teardown.  You can only show up with 1 flat blade screwdriver.

I took 2 weeks vacation and crammed out of a study book.  I also took a review class at Cal State LA (I think...).  And, like you, I barely passed.  But passing is a binary kind of thing, you do or you don't.

I still have that stupid certificate hanging on my wall decades later...  perhaps as a testament to the power of apathy and booze. 

[LaserSteve]

One of my former employers designated me as an Engineer... My degree is in Education, but I have about twenty years of working with electronics and 12 years of technical service at a university.  So I looked up Ohio's rules, as from time to time I was working on half million Dollar or more  systems....

Just get Queensland to adopt the following language and note that your employer can designate you as an engineer in title only.  Your not a PE, but you then can use the "E" word within reason, you are not chartered and you do not have a PE stamp, so your drawings are not to be used anyways... See  section "A" , where your employer may designate you the title of "Engineer". which may pose a little  problem if your self employed... Then the corporation accepts responsibility for your work.

      PEs in this state do Civil and Surveying work...   I was sevicing lasers.  I still developed a habit of saying, "I am not a PE in the state of Ohio" when it comes to structural matters, which  I did deal with when obtaining power and cooling...  Thank God my title is Senior Technician now, it gets rid of a lot of the potential  liability as I am supervised by a PhD PE.  That does not mean I get to do a lower quality of work.


In my area, I'm constantly coming across work by shoddy "electricians" that I have to fix or have fixed for grounding and phasing issues, so I do support having a few tests and certifications required in the construction industry.


For the title here,  You have to have a four year degree here by a ABET accredited college, pass the "Engineer in Training Exam",  work X number of years under a PE, then set the final  exam..   There is / was a bypass for Engineering Professors appointed to a College  on the work requirement. --------------------------------------------------------------------

Ohio Revised Code  4733.02  |  4733.03 >

Restricting use of title engineer by itself or with other terms.

(A) Except for an individual who, as part of the internal classification system of the individual’s employer, uses the title “engineer” by itself or in conjunction with another term described in division (B) of this section and who does not represent the individual’s self to the public or otherwise advertise the individual’s self as an engineer, no individual shall, in connection with the individual’s name, assume, use, or advertise:

(1) The title “engineer” by itself unless the individual is an engineer;

(2) The title “engineer” in conjunction with another term that modifies the title “engineer” in a manner that conveys the impression that the individual is a graduate of an accredited engineering curriculum unless the individual is a graduate of an accredited engineering curriculum.

(B) Terms used in conjunction with the title “engineer” under division (A)(2) of this section that imply a person is a graduate of an accredited engineering curriculum include the following: “aerospace,” “agricultural,” “civil,” “chemical,” “computer,” “electrical,” “industrial,” “mechanics,” “mechanical,” “metallurgical,” “mining,” “naval architectural and marine,” “nuclear,” and any other term commonly used by an institution of higher learning to apply to graduates of an accredited engineering curriculum.

(C) Nothing in this section shall be interpreted as prohibiting the use, assumption, or advertisement of the title “steam engineer” or “stationary engineer,” by or on behalf of a person licensed under Chapter 4739. of the Revised Code, or the term “railroad engineer” or “locomotive engineer,” by or on behalf of a person authorized to operate a railroad locomotive, or the term “operating engineer,” by or on behalf of a person who operates, maintains, repairs, or manufactures light or heavy construction equipment.

HISTORY: 144 v H 482 (Effective 07-01-1993); 149 v H 337. Effective Date 08-06-2002.

[tszaboo]

Qualification check is quite usual in the EU. All the jobs I applied for requested a scan of my Uni. degree.
Probably there is a big database, where all the degrees are entered. If you have to register, and pay a subscription or something (reasonable amount), I wouldn't have a problem with that. Imagine, that there would be a common platform, where you could inform all relevant engineers if there is a change in some regulation. Push notification, instead of pulling.

I don’t think that is a “qualification check” in this context unfortunately. The universities do have a system here that allows an employer to check for the validity of a degree.
...

That's indeed worse. Although, you can make bad systems better by simple slight changes.
For example, if: You are entitled by law to get salary during the courses. Your employer has to pay for it, and it is tax deductible. It gives you a nice change of pace for the daily rat-race, and networking with other engineers.
Wow, I'm dreaming. Someone wake me up.

[nctnico]

Qualification check is quite usual in the EU. All the jobs I applied for requested a scan of my Uni. degree.

Maybe in Belgium but not in the NL. For some job applications I had to take tests to see if I actually knew what I claimed to know. I never ever had to show any degree.

[floobydust]

Professional Engineer License, this is public information (member registry).
Most employers require copies of university transcripts for proof of degree. My university mails them out as requested.
Other employers are OK with a scan/pic of my degree parchment. That could easily be faked in Photoshop.

Fake engineers are a problem with many immigrants claiming such creds from some school nobody has heard of or speaks their language, to confirm.
This was a problem in the early 1900's, rail bridges, buildings collapsing.

[rstofer]

In the US, we have a problem giving 'tests'.  First, we have to prove we give the same exam to all candidates and, second, we have to prove that the language doesn't itself discriminate against any group.  Think those for whom English is a foreign language.  The exam questions also have to be relevant to the job and, eventually, you may have to defend them in court.

One of the drivers for renting employees from an agency is the fact that you get to see how a worker performs without actually hiring them.  You can keep them for up to a year and discharge them with no blow-back.  If you keep them more than a year, the get employee rights.  IBM lost this case...  The good news:  If it doesn't work out, you just tell the agency the contract is over.

[EEVblog]

In California, the process for becoming a Professional Engineer is rather formal and involves testing.  A diploma and CV won't get it done.

In Australia you just have to show your certificate and provide a copy of your CV showing 3 years work experience and bingo, MIEAust letters for you.

To get to Chartered status is more involved:
https://www.engineersaustralia.org.au/Chartered/Evidence-Matrix
But I've know some pretty practically clueless engineers to get that, ones that aren't really capable of doing real practical engineering work.

Ooh, looks like they have a new wanky title, Engineering Executive
https://www.engineersaustralia.org.au/For-Individuals/Professional-Engineer/Engineering-Executive

And look, you can take the test it seems:
https://www.engineersaustralia.org.au/portal/chartered/areas-of-practice

When you select EE you get the description:

Electrical engineering encompasses electricity generation, transmission, distribution, electrical equipment manufacture, instrumentation and control systems.

There is no option for electronics engineering.

[james_s]

I'm not sure what I think of this. Certainly there is no shortage of botched projects done by professional engineers, I've got a whole book on them. Some amount of certification is necessary but too many layers of bureaucracy can just add a lot of hassle with few real gains.

[DerekG]

Yes. I'm a member of the IEEE, but not the IEA. Was only ever a student member of the IEA way back.

And for many of us who travelled & worked overseas for many years, we are probably no longer members of any professional organisation.

What is important is to keep a copy of your degree (& Professional Academic Transcript). These indicate your full name & the date you completed your qualification.

When you apply for a job, you will supply your date of birth.

In Australia, the prospective employer should then call the university (locating the phone number independently of course) & ask for the records department.

By supplying the above information, the university records department will verify the applicant's academic record at that institution.

The employer can protect themselves by paying a small fee to the university for an official limited stamped copy of the Professional Academic Transcript (PET).

All pretty simple really.

PS: Oh ........... in Australia the prospective employer should also ensure the person is allowed to work in the country. This bit is often harder than the qualification bit above. Employing a person who does not have a natural right (or a visa) to work can end up with substantial fines and/or jail time.

[EEVblog]

In Australia, the prospective employer should then call the university (locating the phone number independently of course) & ask for the records department.

Hardly anyone does that in the electronics industry here.
In fact I can't recall the last time I heard that happen. Not at any company I've ever worked at or interviewed for.

[DerekG]

Hardly anyone does that in the electronics industry here.

Quite right. In the past this has often been glossed over, however with technology making it much easier for counterfeits & the increasing burden of legal liability on employers, it is becoming more common.

The employer generally only does it when he gets down to a shortlist of 1 or 2 applicants.

[jeremy]

If the authenticity of a degree is of concern, the universities here do have quite a sophisticated checking system in place now (hologram stickers, embossing, etc). But it’s easier to just contact the uni and ask ? 

Hardly anyone does that in the electronics industry here.
In fact I can't recall the last time I heard that happen. Not at any company I've ever worked at or interviewed for.

To be fair, there isn’t that much of an electronics industry here compared to the size of the digging big holes in the ground industry. I’m sure if there were some electronics mega corporations here like TI, intel, NXP, etc things would be different.

[DeanA]

I know that some tenders here for Queensland department of Transport and Main Roads have asked for RPEQ certification on some parts of the electronics design and stand alone solar power system.  So it is being used to some extent..

[jeremy]

I know that some tenders here for Queensland department of Transport and Main Roads have asked for RPEQ certification on some parts of the electronics design and stand alone solar power system.  So it is being used to some extent..

Yes, for govt stuff definitely; I think it's written into legislation somewhere that it is required. But for private enterprise it seems to be non-existent.

[VK3DRB]

In Australia, the prospective employer should then call the university (locating the phone number independently of course) & ask for the records department.

Hardly anyone does that in the electronics industry here.
In fact I can't recall the last time I heard that happen. Not at any company I've ever worked at or interviewed for.

True. I have not checked on people at their unis, but these days I can usually sniff if they are frauds during an interview. I don't pay too much attention to certificates either - you can buy fake degrees online.

I learnt a harsh lesson 25 years ago years ago when I and some others interviewed a bloke for an engineering role. He said he had a degree from RMIT. He got the job but he soon proved to be a tosser. He knew nothing about electronics and he did not know we had 240V mains (he thought we had 120V in Australia). There is a lot more to the story (OH & S, and company theft) and he was walked to the door (literally) by management soon after getting the job. He definitely had no degree. He seriously he had some issues.

So I test people if I am involved with interviews. I have a standard technical test, most of which is specific to the approach to problem solving, electronic design, and aspects like DFMEA, DFM and DFT. One question I ask is, "Please tell me about control theory." If they have no idea what control theory is, it is likely they do not have an engineering degree.

As for IEAust and IEEE, I am qualified to join these, but I don't bother - no real benefit really - the money is better in my pocket. Yeah Spectrum is a cool magazine - I just get it at work anyway.

[floobydust]

I give a basic 10 question aptitude test to potential new hires.

Last guy- couldn't sketch how to connect a transistor and  calculate LED dropping resistor. It was terrible 
Next candidate, said she "would just use Google".

What they are doing is making huge fake claims about their knowledge and then using the Internet to get by.