EU ban of halogen lamps - tomorrow - first I've heard of it!

[rdl]

The "inefficient lights" have no control over how the power they use is generated.

[Simon]

Europe's population has grown too, and Europeans use more energy than third world dwellers. China has overtaken America in renewable's. But Europe is full of people who do nothing but bleat about their right to infringe on other peoples rights!

[StillTrying]

When expensive colour TV arrived in the UK about 1970, they didn't have to ban BW TVs to force people buy the new expensive colour TVs. When expensive LCD TVs arrived about 15 years ago, they didn't have to ban CRT TVs to force people to buy the flat screens.

The bad LED bulb manufacturers must be happy, "We know our LED bulbs are rubbish, - but they'll have to buy them anyway!" 

[razberik]

Why does YOUR "freedom" to run inefficient lights trump my freedom to breath clean air and live on a planet that has not bee wrecked by global warming? Power usage has continued to rise with an increasing population, but it's usage has not risen nearly as much as it would have had we not adopted more efficient technologies.

Why not introduce personal quota for sum of energy use?
It would be my business if I burn my kilowatt quota in inefficient wolfram bulb or I just start burning energy in dummy load and then I release this heat through my window just only to make YOU angry ?

And what else ? I just burned somewhat kilowatts this summer in my air-conditioner because there are too many kilowatts outside which make me rather uncomfortable. 

[madires]

Complaining about the ban of incandescent bulbs and cheap LED bulbs is ignoring the fact that the life span of a typical household incandescent bulb is still artificially limited to about 1000h. Is this rip-off any better because of the warm glow?

[NiHaoMike]

Because that most certainly isn't the case in the USA. Despite reduced manufacturing, our overall electrical consumption is higher than ever and steadily increasing, the question of what to do to improve our electrical grid to meet future demand is a serious issue. Our (private, for-profit) utility has for years been providing subsidies to encourage people to upgrade their lighting, heating, windows and insulation to reduce demand in an attempt to stave off expensive upgrades to the grid construction of new power plants.

There are programs like Ohmconnect that pay participants to cut usage during peaks, thereby providing incentive to directly attack the actual problem. Having participated when I was in an area that had it, I actually want that to be available to anyone who's on the grid.

[dzseki]

Complaining about the ban of incandescent bulbs and cheap LED bulbs is ignoring the fact that the life span of a typical household incandescent bulb is still artificially limited to about 1000h. Is this rip-off any better because of the warm glow?

I'm quite sure the very same will happen with the LED lamps too...
When Recordable CDs came to market they claimed 100+ years of life, then in the end I had several CD-Rs that I could not read only after a few years...
Also, in my parent's house there is an old OSRAM CFL lamp that have an iron core ballast (despite being compact), now that lamp is over 20 years old and still going strong and is in regular use... but unfortunately I have failed to find any modern (switching ballast type) CFL lamps coming close to that longevity.

[Simon]

Because that most certainly isn't the case in the USA. Despite reduced manufacturing, our overall electrical consumption is higher than ever and steadily increasing, the question of what to do to improve our electrical grid to meet future demand is a serious issue. Our (private, for-profit) utility has for years been providing subsidies to encourage people to upgrade their lighting, heating, windows and insulation to reduce demand in an attempt to stave off expensive upgrades to the grid construction of new power plants.

There are programs like Ohmconnect that pay participants to cut usage during peaks, thereby providing incentive to directly attack the actual problem. Having participated when I was in an area that had it, I actually want that to be available to anyone who's on the grid.

Yes these programs exist, it's called making it dammed expensive at peak times to try and control consumption. I am having solar fitted with 5.5KW of battery capacity and a 3.7KW output so I'd welcome more aggressive pricing one day they may even buy my battery power at peak times

[mzzj]

Complaining about the ban of incandescent bulbs and cheap LED bulbs is ignoring the fact that the life span of a typical household incandescent bulb is still artificially limited to about 1000h. Is this rip-off any better because of the warm glow?

Limited? How?
What would be the efficiency if you increase the lifetime to 10000h?

[Zero999]

Complaining about the ban of incandescent bulbs and cheap LED bulbs is ignoring the fact that the life span of a typical household incandescent bulb is still artificially limited to about 1000h. Is this rip-off any better because of the warm glow?

As mentioned previously in the thread, incandescent lamp life time is at an optimum. Any longer would mean a cooler filament, using more power which would cost more power over the life time of the lamp, than just replacing it more often. Any shorter and replacing the lamp too often becomes more expensive.

I'm quite sure the very same will happen with the LED lamps too...
When Recordable CDs came to market they claimed 100+ years of life, then in the end I had several CD-Rs that I could not read only after a few years...
Also, in my parent's house there is an old OSRAM CFL lamp that have an iron core ballast (despite being compact), now that lamp is over 20 years old and still going strong and is in regular use... but unfortunately I have failed to find any modern (switching ballast type) CFL lamps coming close to that longevity.

It's probably more to do with modern CFLs having to have less mercury, than the older ones. Also note that could could probably save money by replacing the old one with a magnetic ballast, with a newer one, because the energy saving will make up for having to replace it more often. I also suspect that this is a fluke. I remember the first CFL my parent's got which used a magnetic ballast and that didn't seem to last for that long, certainly better than an incandescent but not as good as some of the modern solid state ballast CFLs. It also flickered more, was bigger, more bulky and used more power, than its modern counterpart.

[james_s]

Complaining about the ban of incandescent bulbs and cheap LED bulbs is ignoring the fact that the life span of a typical household incandescent bulb is still artificially limited to about 1000h. Is this rip-off any better because of the warm glow?

It's not artificially limited, there is a compromise between long life and high efficiency. Making an incandescent lamp last 100,000 hours is trivial, IF you don't mind one with an efficiency of only a few lumens per Watt. Conversely, efficiency can approach that of some discharge sources if you're willing to settle for a lamp that lasts only a few minutes. Light output per unit of energy consumed falls sharply as you run the filament cooler to reduce the rate of tungsten evaporation to increase life. 1,000 hours was selected as a compromise offering acceptable life while still being reasonably efficient.

This is a shining example of why it was necessary for the government to intervene and phase out incandescent lamps. Large numbers of people for some reason simply cannot seem to grasp the fact that the vast majority of the total cost of ownership of an incandescent lamp is the electricity needed to light it. An incandescent bult that lasts twice as long will have a total cost much more than twice that of the shorter lived bulb. There are people right here in this thread who clearly don't understand this.

[Cyberdragon]

Complaining about the ban of incandescent bulbs and cheap LED bulbs is ignoring the fact that the life span of a typical household incandescent bulb is still artificially limited to about 1000h. Is this rip-off any better because of the warm glow?

I'm quite sure the very same will happen with the LED lamps too...
When Recordable CDs came to market they claimed 100+ years of life, then in the end I had several CD-Rs that I could not read only after a few years...
Also, in my parent's house there is an old OSRAM CFL lamp that have an iron core ballast (despite being compact), now that lamp is over 20 years old and still going strong and is in regular use... but unfortunately I have failed to find any modern (switching ballast type) CFL lamps coming close to that longevity.

Electronic CFLs are just crap, no better than cheap LEDs but with added heavy metals. As for LEDs, if they, god forbid, let the market switch over slowly, there'd be a range of bulbs at different ages with the oldest ones going out (or dim) and needing replacement.

https://www.discountlighting.com.au/blog/lighting-tips-and-tricks/factors-affecting-the-led-bulbs-lifespan/

Electronics repair shops (what still exist) will have to start covering light bulbs.

[james_s]

I had pretty good luck with electronic CFLs, there were some that certainly didn't live up to claims but others I had lasted for years and certainly saved me money in the long run. I have not used an incandescent lamp for general illumination in ~20 years so it has always seemed a bit strange to me to see people clinging to them and moaning about the government. If people had any sense about this stuff the market WOULD have moved away from incandescent years and years ago, but it didn't so clearly a nudge was needed. Ironically it's the people complaining loudest about the government involvement who are illustrating precisely why government involvement was necessary.

I started buying LED bulbs when they were quite expensive because I could see the potential in the technology and wanted it to succeed. Ultimately though I think government intervention was necessary to kick start things. The LED bulbs cost a lot to develop so manufactures needed to know they could sell the bulbs. After a few years development reached a state where costs had been engineered down dramatically, while still offering acceptable lifespan relative to the early over-engineered LED bulbs and now the various subsidies are no longer necessary. An LED bulb retailing for less than $5 easily pays for itself in savings and yet some people STILL cling to incandescent lamp tech from 80 years ago.

[Cyberdragon]

This is a shining example of why it was necessary for the government to intervene and phase out incandescent lamps. Large numbers of people for some reason simply cannot seem to grasp the fact that the vast majority of the total cost of ownership of an incandescent lamp is the electricity needed to light it. An incandescent bult that lasts twice as long will have a total cost much more than twice that of the shorter lived bulb. There are people right here in this thread who clearly don't understand this.

The average Joe isn't THAT stupid. They know LED bulbs are more effecient. We don't need to have the gonvernment tell us how to use OUR ELECTRICITY that WE PURCHASED. If I want to waste 10KW blasting terrible music out into the desert with giant tube amps for no reason, I have the right to do so. It's not the consumers fault some countries have trouble switching to renewables.

[Simon]

This is a shining example of why it was necessary for the government to intervene and phase out incandescent lamps. Large numbers of people for some reason simply cannot seem to grasp the fact that the vast majority of the total cost of ownership of an incandescent lamp is the electricity needed to light it. An incandescent bult that lasts twice as long will have a total cost much more than twice that of the shorter lived bulb. There are people right here in this thread who clearly don't understand this.

The average Joe isn't THAT stupid. They know LED bulbs are more effecient. We don't need to have the gonvernment tell us how to use OUR ELECTRICITY that WE PURCHASED. If I want to waste 10KW blasting terrible music out into the desert with giant tube amps for no reason, I have the right to do so. It's not the consumers fault some countries have trouble switching to renewables.

Don't be stupid, the average citizen IS stupid from an engineering point of view and you just demonstrated that. No one likes change hence the stupid attempt to make roof tiles with solar panels in them to keep stupid people happy that won't just buy regular solar panels that cost less. i am having solar panels installed because I am not stupid and don't hold on to the dream of living in a victorian looking house while moaning about the cost of electricity. I got smart and will never see an electric bill again. I sit opposite a stupid engineer every day who is a shit engineer because he lets his prejudices take priority and hates anything electric that means progress. if he had his way this so called engineer that is not that clever so should not be called an engineer (engineer derives from the ingenuity - the application of cleverness) he would run the world on steam engines!!!!!!

[G7PSK]

Every body especially the EU politicians fret about the energy wasted using incandescent bulbs and want to force LED ones on all the populace.

What they are forgetting is is the extra energy costs in manufacture which should include the basic smelting of the raw materials which produces vast amounts of CO2 and this should include the extra transport requirements for manufacturing electronics compared to simple incandescent bulbs.

I am convinced that the real reason politicians want to reduce energy use in homes is so they can reduce imports of energy and or stockpile more oil for for the military.

[mzzj]

Complaining about the ban of incandescent bulbs and cheap LED bulbs is ignoring the fact that the life span of a typical household incandescent bulb is still artificially limited to about 1000h. Is this rip-off any better because of the warm glow?

IIRC "optimum" lifetime for incandescent bulb was about 160! hours if you consider only bulb's purchase price and used electricity. Everyone would be going nuts if they lasted only that short and on industrial scale you also have to consider how much money/work you spend on replacing the bulbs (and that's the reason traffic signal bulbs are rated for 8000 hours)

http://www.lighting.philips.com/main/prof/conventional-lamps-and-tubes/incandescent-lamps/gls-specialties/traffic-signal/925285536103_EU/product

8000h lightbulb 660Lm 69w, cost for 8000h lightning: bulb 0,5usd and 552kWh electricity at 0.15usd/kwh = 0,5+82usd  = 82,5usd total
1000h 60w lightbulb is 800lm, so you would get same amount of light with imaginary 50 watt light bulb = 8*0,5usd for lightbulbs, 400kWh electricity = 4usd +  60usd = 64usd total

Goverment has to force these things because even on Electrical Engineering forum these light bulb conspiracies pop up. 

[madires]

Complaining about the ban of incandescent bulbs and cheap LED bulbs is ignoring the fact that the life span of a typical household incandescent bulb is still artificially limited to about 1000h. Is this rip-off any better because of the warm glow?

Limited? How?
What would be the efficiency if you increase the lifetime to 10000h?

Please see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoebus_cartel. It also notes that some engineers think that the bulb with a life span of 1000h has the highest efficiency.

[madires]

It's not artificially limited, there is a compromise between long life and high efficiency. Making an incandescent lamp last 100,000 hours is trivial, IF you don't mind one with an efficiency of only a few lumens per Watt. Conversely, efficiency can approach that of some discharge sources if you're willing to settle for a lamp that lasts only a few minutes. Light output per unit of energy consumed falls sharply as you run the filament cooler to reduce the rate of tungsten evaporation to increase life. 1,000 hours was selected as a compromise offering acceptable life while still being reasonably efficient.

In some use cases a longer life span with less efficiency would be totally acceptable. There are such bulbs for traffic lights for example. But they would be also interesting for outside lighting of homes (front door / drive way to garage / garden / etc) and lots of switching cycles (switched by PIR sensor). A too bright light would be irritating and changing bulbs might be cumbersome based on the location of the lamps.

This is a shining example of why it was necessary for the government to intervene and phase out incandescent lamps. Large numbers of people for some reason simply cannot seem to grasp the fact that the vast majority of the total cost of ownership of an incandescent lamp is the electricity needed to light it. An incandescent bult that lasts twice as long will have a total cost much more than twice that of the shorter lived bulb. There are people right here in this thread who clearly don't understand this.

I switched to LED several years ago and the investment has amortized quickly via my power bill.

[madires]

8000h lightbulb 660Lm 69w, cost for 8000h lightning: bulb 0,5usd and 552kWh electricity at 0.15usd/kwh = 0,5+82usd  = 82,5usd total
1000h 60w lightbulb is 800lm, so you would get same amount of light with imaginary 50 watt light bulb = 8*0,5usd for lightbulbs, 400kWh electricity = 4usd +  60usd = 64usd total

As I've written in another post, in some use cases I would trade efficiency for life span or switching cycles. It's not always about the brightest and most efficient light.

[Simon]

Every body especially the EU politicians fret about the energy wasted using incandescent bulbs and want to force LED ones on all the populace.

What they are forgetting is is the extra energy costs in manufacture which should include the basic smelting of the raw materials which produces vast amounts of CO2 and this should include the extra transport requirements for manufacturing electronics compared to simple incandescent bulbs.

I am convinced that the real reason politicians want to reduce energy use in homes is so they can reduce imports of energy and or stockpile more oil for for the military.

Do you have your sources? they used to say that crap about solar panels. Stockpiling oil for the military??? OK, no point trying to argue with that one.

[tom66]

This is a shining example of why it was necessary for the government to intervene and phase out incandescent lamps. Large numbers of people for some reason simply cannot seem to grasp the fact that the vast majority of the total cost of ownership of an incandescent lamp is the electricity needed to light it. An incandescent bult that lasts twice as long will have a total cost much more than twice that of the shorter lived bulb. There are people right here in this thread who clearly don't understand this.

The average Joe isn't THAT stupid. They know LED bulbs are more effecient. We don't need to have the gonvernment tell us how to use OUR ELECTRICITY that WE PURCHASED.

I know many "average Joes", including my girlfriend and an engineering (albeit mechanical) friend of mine that did not know how much an incandescent bulb costs to operate.  I promptly helped both upgrade their residences to full LED, saving approximately £70 per year in electricity costs.  The LED bulbs cost about £60 (in total), so they were net positive by the end of the year.

If I want to waste 10KW blasting terrible music out into the desert with giant tube amps for no reason, I have the right to do so. It's not the consumers fault some countries have trouble switching to renewables.

No.  We all share this planet and the atmosphere so you do not have the right to cause pollution to be emitted if there is no viable alternative.

Unless you are doing colour sensitive work, there's absolutely no reason to use incandescent lighting.  And guess what, you can still buy incandescent bulbs for industrial purposes,  just have to go to a specialist supplier.  But Joe Consumer will now buy an LED lamp because that is the option available, and they don't need to understand the difference.

[NiHaoMike]

I remember there once were incandescent bulbs with built in series diodes to allow the use of shorter but thicker filaments, in order to boost lifespan without compromising efficiency. Those didn't last very long before CFLs took over, but I wonder how much validity there is to the idea.

[Bassman59]

I suspect people had the same complaints about leaded petrol being banned.

Oh, sure, there were endless complaints after leaded gasoline was finally removed from the market. But it had been proven that lead in gasoline was a significant public health problem, and no reasonable person will argue that it was the wrong decision.

[SeanB]

I have a collection of those magnetic ballast units, designed to use a regular PL7,9 or 10w lamp with built in starter ( thus the 2 pin lamp units) and they last almost forever. Buying a good quality lamp ( Phillips, GE or Osram not made in the PRC, the best were made in Poland and Hungary) meant you had a lifetime of around 5 years per lamp in 24/7 operation. Replaced some with Phillips tornado CFL lamps ( brighter light) and those also last well provided you run them correctly, ie base down in open air.