Author Topic: EU copytight law madness. It has passed. It will become a reality.  (Read 10993 times)

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Offline b_force

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Re: EU copytight law madness. It has passed. It will become a reality.
« Reply #50 on: September 18, 2018, 11:15:50 am »
Wiki will disappear?

As long as you give credits to the source there is absolutely no issue with copyrights.
Something that is very often neglected on YouTube.
What isn't clear to me is if ths "tax" is just for situations were those sources aren't credited or for all situations.
Besides that I do understand the problem, there a numerous websites (like Google) that earn pretty pennies by just simply linking to others.
These other people don't even get a cent from it.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2018, 11:22:51 am by b_force »
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Offline Tepe

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Re: EU copytight law madness. It has passed. It will become a reality.
« Reply #51 on: September 18, 2018, 11:23:51 am »
As long as you give credits to the source there is absolutely no issue with copyrights.
That depends on both context and extent.
 

Offline b_force

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Re: EU copytight law madness. It has passed. It will become a reality.
« Reply #52 on: September 18, 2018, 11:42:46 am »
As long as you give credits to the source there is absolutely no issue with copyrights.
That depends on both context and extent.
Explain?  ???
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Offline Tepe

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Re: EU copytight law madness. It has passed. It will become a reality.
« Reply #53 on: September 18, 2018, 12:59:46 pm »
As long as you give credits to the source there is absolutely no issue with copyrights.
That depends on both context and extent.
Explain?  ???
The easiest way to do that might be to simply quote the English language Wikipedia on the "Right to quote":
Quote
National legislations usually embody the Berne Convention limits in one or more of the following requirements:
  • the cited paragraphs are within a reasonable limit (varying from country to country),
  • clearly marked as quotations and fully referenced,
  • the resulting new work is not just a collection of quotations, but constitutes a fully original work in itself.
The first bullet limits the extent and the third the context. Your comment only approximated the second bullet.
As always, your mileage may vary depending of jurisdiction.
 

Offline b_force

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Re: EU copytight law madness. It has passed. It will become a reality.
« Reply #54 on: September 18, 2018, 01:06:04 pm »
As long as you give credits to the source there is absolutely no issue with copyrights.
That depends on both context and extent.
Explain?  ???
The easiest way to do that might be to simply quote the English language Wikipedia on the "Right to quote":
Quote
National legislations usually embody the Berne Convention limits in one or more of the following requirements:
  • the cited paragraphs are within a reasonable limit (varying from country to country),
  • clearly marked as quotations and fully referenced,
  • the resulting new work is not just a collection of quotations, but constitutes a fully original work in itself.
The first bullet limits the extent and the third the context. Your comment only approximated the second bullet.
As always, your mileage may vary depending of jurisdiction.
How has quoting to do with this?
I think you're confused with plagiarism instead maybe?

Quoting is allowed to some extend yes (like you mentioned), but copying a whole article or idea (on Youtube) is plagiarism.
According to Wikipedia it's not a crime, which actually is a false statement.
In a lot of countries plagiarism is actually seen as a crime.

But you can still "copy" or refer to an article or idea and write or say it in your own words.
As long as you give credit to the original source, that is not an issue.
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Offline Tepe

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Re: EU copytight law madness. It has passed. It will become a reality.
« Reply #55 on: September 18, 2018, 01:56:08 pm »
But you can still "copy" or refer to an article or idea and write or say it in your own words.
Thanks. Now I get your point.

As long as you give credit to the original source, that is not an issue.
If that is even necessary.
 

Offline MK14

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Re: EU copytight law madness. It has passed. It will become a reality.
« Reply #56 on: September 18, 2018, 02:06:05 pm »
I think that there is a lot of room for improvement, in Linux, as regards installing applications.
There will always be room for improving things, of course. Windows, however is not a paragon of excellence in the software installation - and uninstallation - department.

My main beef with the GNU world is the dual abominations autoconf and automake (*shudder*) which have spread like a cancer in the open source world.
I agree windows has its own issues (problems) as well.

But partly because I don't know much about autoconf and automake. But especially to keep this thread on topic, I'm going to thank you for your replay, and leave it at that.
 
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Offline rstofer

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Re: EU copytight law madness. It has passed. It will become a reality.
« Reply #57 on: September 18, 2018, 02:30:31 pm »
Wiki will disappear?

As long as you give credits to the source there is absolutely no issue with copyrights.
Something that is very often neglected on YouTube.
What isn't clear to me is if ths "tax" is just for situations were those sources aren't credited or for all situations.
Besides that I do understand the problem, there a numerous websites (like Google) that earn pretty pennies by just simply linking to others.
These other people don't even get a cent from it.

Of course they do!  They have some probability that someone will click the link to their site and they gain something from visitors - like Amazon selling billions of dollars worth of stuff.

If we're suggesting that the target site is some kind of academic site with nothing to sell, well, the click gets them recognition which is why they put the site up to begin with.

There must be some value to having a site included in search results.  Otherwise, the web server can tell the bots to ignore the site and move along.

The alternative is to have sites specifically opt-in or opt-out of Google responses.  Of course that leaves the site in total obscurity if they opt out.  Kind of like having a web server and no Internet connection.  I suspect the 'dark web' works a lot like that.

Google, OTOH, makes their money by including commercial sites that pay a fee.  These sites will be at the top of the replies.  And that makes sense!  If I'm trying to buy something, I will almost always find Amazon at the top of the list.  That's because they pay Google to put them there.  Billy Bob's Hardware Store, if it is referenced at all, will be somewhere down the list because they didn't pay anything at all.  Their site was found by wandering bots.  And there was no requirement that Google wander the web looking for his site.

That pretty much defines capitalism.  You have to spend money to make money.  Pay the click fee and you get farther up the list.  There's nothing wrong with capitalism.  If Billy Bob was smart, he's open an account at Amazon and run his business through their web services.  Then even when Amazon was at the top of the list, his site would be linked as another supplier (or maybe the only supplier if his products are unique).

I fear that some of these proposals are going to backfire in a really big way.  We could wind up with a situation where EU users can't reach US sites at all.  It would obviously be a bilateral situation and I might not be able to buy from the EU.  This kind of thing isn't going to end well.
 

Offline b_force

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Re: EU copytight law madness. It has passed. It will become a reality.
« Reply #58 on: September 18, 2018, 02:35:56 pm »
As long as you give credit to the original source, that is not an issue.
If that is even necessary.
And I think that last part is something the EU wants to work on.
I can just act as a website that only refers/links other websites.
That is totally fine and all, but it's a bit sad when the original writers/owners don't see anything back from it.
Especially on such a large scale.

It's even worse when someone puts all his time, energy and effort in writing a paper, people just "copy" it and write an article in their own words.
The only thing they need to do is refer back to the original article.
Mostly this is done by hyperlinking the original article which is embedded in a sentence or so (which most people don't even click on).

So yes, I can see that in these situations it's very frustrating for the original creator, since he doesn't see anything back from it.
Maybe a little bit of "exposure".

So I am not against the proposed idea, but (as always) the implementation is just one big cringe.
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Offline b_force

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Re: EU copytight law madness. It has passed. It will become a reality.
« Reply #59 on: September 18, 2018, 02:48:25 pm »
Wiki will disappear?

As long as you give credits to the source there is absolutely no issue with copyrights.
Something that is very often neglected on YouTube.
What isn't clear to me is if ths "tax" is just for situations were those sources aren't credited or for all situations.
Besides that I do understand the problem, there a numerous websites (like Google) that earn pretty pennies by just simply linking to others.
These other people don't even get a cent from it.

Of course they do!  They have some probability that someone will click the link to their site and they gain something from visitors - like Amazon selling billions of dollars worth of stuff.

If we're suggesting that the target site is some kind of academic site with nothing to sell, well, the click gets them recognition which is why they put the site up to begin with.

There must be some value to having a site included in search results.  Otherwise, the web server can tell the bots to ignore the site and move along.

The alternative is to have sites specifically opt-in or opt-out of Google responses.  Of course that leaves the site in total obscurity if they opt out.  Kind of like having a web server and no Internet connection.  I suspect the 'dark web' works a lot like that.

Google, OTOH, makes their money by including commercial sites that pay a fee.  These sites will be at the top of the replies.  And that makes sense!  If I'm trying to buy something, I will almost always find Amazon at the top of the list.  That's because they pay Google to put them there.  Billy Bob's Hardware Store, if it is referenced at all, will be somewhere down the list because they didn't pay anything at all.  Their site was found by wandering bots.  And there was no requirement that Google wander the web looking for his site.

That pretty much defines capitalism.  You have to spend money to make money.  Pay the click fee and you get farther up the list.  There's nothing wrong with capitalism.  If Billy Bob was smart, he's open an account at Amazon and run his business through their web services.  Then even when Amazon was at the top of the list, his site would be linked as another supplier (or maybe the only supplier if his products are unique).

I fear that some of these proposals are going to backfire in a really big way.  We could wind up with a situation where EU users can't reach US sites at all.  It would obviously be a bilateral situation and I might not be able to buy from the EU.  This kind of thing isn't going to end well.
What"s wrong with it, is that you force people using the same big players over and over again, which makes these big players even bigger.
You end up with only a very limited selection of options.

That is just completely unfair competition, besides the fact that some people don't wanna support companies like Amazon for other reasons (they aren't the nicest to their employers).
So I can totally understand why Billy Bob doesn't want to deal with Amazon.
Maybe Billy Bob even has an idea or way of working that is way better than Amazon, and therefore beneficial for everyone?
Who knows, but by working this way we will never know or experience.

Personally I think it's even unethical that people or companies get benefits just because they have bigger wallets.
You will end up with some companies that are way to big and have way to much power.
Billy Bob probably things the same.
"If you can't explain it simply (or at all), you don't understand it well enough." A. Einstein

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Offline rstofer

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Re: EU copytight law madness. It has passed. It will become a reality.
« Reply #60 on: September 18, 2018, 08:03:35 pm »
Personally I think it's even unethical that people or companies get benefits just because they have bigger wallets.
You will end up with some companies that are way to big and have way to much power.
Billy Bob probably things the same.

Walmart comes to mind.  It demolishes small, inefficient, businesses.  You would think that NOBODY would buy from them, knowing what a terrible company they are.  Oh, wait!  It's about prices!  People may not like Walmart but they buy from them based on price alone.

On what planet would a no-account company like Billy Bob's Hardware Store (a mythical company in this post) wind up farther up the list of replies than Amazon?  He does what, maybe a hundred grand per year?  Amazon does a 350 grand per minute.  And Amazon's price (or their affiliates price) might actually be lower and I often get the stuff with 'same day delivery'.  Of course I'm going to order from Amazon.  Just the other day I bought a single item:  a box of 12 cheap ball-point pens.  I could have driven downtown to get them at Office Max but, no, I just click a few buttons and they showed up the next day.  Same for the windshield wipers I needed to replace on my truck.  We have half a dozen auto parts stores and the big dealerships.  Did I bother to get out of my jammies and drive to one of them?  Not a chance.  A few clicks and they were here the next day.

Funny thing:  Amazon's prices are not the lowest around.    But free next-day delivery and sometimes same-day delivery makes up the difference.  Of course I want them at the top of the list!

But that's not the point!  What gives some government the right to tell a private business how to run their business as long as they are ethical.  The US has gone through company breakups and it hasn't worked out as legislators would have hoped.  The breakup of AT&T, the breakup of Standard Oil - these didn't provide any consumer benefit at all.  Instead of behaving like good corporate citizens of a larger organization, the new, smaller, entities were now free of corporate shackles and off they went, themselves monopolies.

In any event, if somebody thinks they can model Amazon, they're free to enter the market at any time.  The problem is, Amazon has a 24 year headstart.  And it's going to take a trillion dollar investment to compete.

Sure, let's kill off the successful, efficient, businesses and let the incompetent rule.  That'll work!


« Last Edit: September 19, 2018, 03:24:15 pm by rstofer »
 
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Offline Vtile

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Re: EU copytight law madness. It has passed. It will become a reality.
« Reply #61 on: September 18, 2018, 08:18:37 pm »
I predict a lots of nudity in nature to follow, what the images in the Internet comes for the future.

Derp is derp.. and they wonder why the extremist movements gets foothold all over the west.  :palm: On the other hand looking the long time historical trends we are late for revolution cycle, it must be that generations live at least 25 years longer now.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2018, 08:21:42 pm by Vtile »
 

Offline Red Squirrel

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Re: EU copytight law madness. It has passed. It will become a reality.
« Reply #62 on: September 18, 2018, 11:07:45 pm »
Linux may be great for developers but it is nightmare for users, because developers do not give crap to each others work. That is seen as i install a program if breaks some other program(s). How in bloody hell can i use this shit?

That and so much fragmentation.  There really should be more standards and collaboration so that there is less duplication of work.  For example there needs to be a better way of managing software installation.  A package should be universal and work on any distro, instead of having to make a package for each and every distro.  If we want to encourage big name software to make a Linux port we need to make it easier for them. 

Also even simple things like settings, I find it's such a mess as if you want to do simple things like manage the screensaver or change GUI settings, it's different on every distro.   Oh and don't get me started with how hard it is to actually remove the screensaver on some distros.  *caugh* Raspbian.

I love Linux, but do agree it still has lot of fixable issues before it can gain more adoption.
 
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Offline langwadt

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Re: EU copytight law madness. It has passed. It will become a reality.
« Reply #63 on: September 18, 2018, 11:30:42 pm »
Wiki will disappear?

As long as you give credits to the source there is absolutely no issue with copyrights.
Something that is very often neglected on YouTube.
What isn't clear to me is if ths "tax" is just for situations were those sources aren't credited or for all situations.
Besides that I do understand the problem, there a numerous websites (like Google) that earn pretty pennies by just simply linking to others.
These other people don't even get a cent from it.

it is very hard to make a robot understand fair use and credits, and a robot is the only realistic way with the amount of data someone like google has to go through.

Websites google link to might not like google making money linking to them, but they would like it even less if google stopped linking
to them because that would decimate their traffic




 
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Offline b_force

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Re: EU copytight law madness. It has passed. It will become a reality.
« Reply #64 on: September 19, 2018, 11:28:19 am »
Linux may be great for developers but it is nightmare for users, because developers do not give crap to each others work. That is seen as i install a program if breaks some other program(s). How in bloody hell can i use this shit?

That and so much fragmentation.  There really should be more standards and collaboration so that there is less duplication of work.  For example there needs to be a better way of managing software installation.  A package should be universal and work on any distro, instead of having to make a package for each and every distro.  If we want to encourage big name software to make a Linux port we need to make it easier for them. 

Also even simple things like settings, I find it's such a mess as if you want to do simple things like manage the screensaver or change GUI settings, it's different on every distro.   Oh and don't get me started with how hard it is to actually remove the screensaver on some distros.  *caugh* Raspbian.

I love Linux, but do agree it still has lot of fixable issues before it can gain more adoption.
Yeah, everyone is just working by themselves on their little island or bubble.
Include some personal far fetched subjective choices (that nobody else wants) to the mix and it's a recipe for an half broken system.
Don't tell the fanboys because than you're "rude".(a big open community that can't handle critique or feedback)
(Yes i have been running linux as my main system for years)
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Offline metrologist

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Re: EU copytight law madness. It has passed. It will become a reality.
« Reply #65 on: September 19, 2018, 03:18:30 pm »
I'm sure they have gone over the numbers and found that they can make more profit by continuing to sell it in the region. They aren't forced to include a competitor's product, that is only because they claimed they could not offer a version without Internet Explorer. Using a position of dominance to push another product is illegal, as it should be. They got slapped hard here in the US too and apparently didn't learn from it.

Nobody was ever forced to use Internet Explorer, they could just use it once to download Google Chrome and be done with it.  If they really disliked IE, they could circulate Chrome on a CD.  Nobody was harmed by the inclusion of IE and the fine was absolutely BS.  BTW, they knew that IE came with Windows when the bought it.  They could have bought something else.  Nobody forced them to buy Windows!  But no, let's try a chicken**** fine!


I never understood the issue with bundling IE. I recall Gates testifying that it was integral to the OS, but still... Notepad, Paint, etc. were also bundled, and no complaint about that? Why?

Because what I understood was that MS forced PC OEM's and system builders to exclude competitive browsers as opposed to other software. That is where I think they ran afoul, using their OS market dominance to manipulate the distribution of competitor's products. IE (Edge) still comes with Windows, AFAIK...  and there is no issue with that  :-//
 
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Offline rstofer

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Re: EU copytight law madness. It has passed. It will become a reality.
« Reply #66 on: September 19, 2018, 03:32:22 pm »
Wiki will disappear?

As long as you give credits to the source there is absolutely no issue with copyrights.
Something that is very often neglected on YouTube.
What isn't clear to me is if ths "tax" is just for situations were those sources aren't credited or for all situations.
Besides that I do understand the problem, there a numerous websites (like Google) that earn pretty pennies by just simply linking to others.
These other people don't even get a cent from it.

it is very hard to make a robot understand fair use and credits, and a robot is the only realistic way with the amount of data someone like google has to go through.

Websites google link to might not like google making money linking to them, but they would like it even less if google stopped linking
to them because that would decimate their traffic

The robot (actually a 'crawler') makes no claims as to knowing about fair use, copyrights or any other concept.  It simply says that "over here there is a site that seems related to your query".  Crawler doesn't know, doesn't need to know, doesn't care.

If the owner of the site doesn't want the crawler to link in their site, they can configure the server to tell the crawlers to ignore the site.  Well mannered crawlers will do what is asked.  But then the site is left in obscurity.  If that's the goal, it's easy to implement.

https://www.inmotionhosting.com/support/website/restricting-bots/how-to-stop-search-engines-from-crawling-your-website

 

Offline langwadt

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Re: EU copytight law madness. It has passed. It will become a reality.
« Reply #67 on: September 19, 2018, 05:07:52 pm »
Wiki will disappear?

As long as you give credits to the source there is absolutely no issue with copyrights.
Something that is very often neglected on YouTube.
What isn't clear to me is if ths "tax" is just for situations were those sources aren't credited or for all situations.
Besides that I do understand the problem, there a numerous websites (like Google) that earn pretty pennies by just simply linking to others.
These other people don't even get a cent from it.

it is very hard to make a robot understand fair use and credits, and a robot is the only realistic way with the amount of data someone like google has to go through.

Websites google link to might not like google making money linking to them, but they would like it even less if google stopped linking
to them because that would decimate their traffic

The robot (actually a 'crawler') makes no claims as to knowing about fair use, copyrights or any other concept.  It simply says that "over here there is a site that seems related to your query".  Crawler doesn't know, doesn't need to know, doesn't care.

If the owner of the site doesn't want the crawler to link in their site, they can configure the server to tell the crawlers to ignore the site.  Well mannered crawlers will do what is asked.  But then the site is left in obscurity.  If that's the goal, it's easy to implement.

I wasn't talking about a crawler that finds links, I was talking about a robot that goes through all user supplied content 
and deletes everything that it thinks might be a copyright violation


 

Offline jmelson

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Re: EU copytight law madness. It has passed. It will become a reality.
« Reply #68 on: September 19, 2018, 08:06:45 pm »
Linux may be great for developers but it is nightmare for users, because developers do not give crap to each others work. That is seen as i install a program if breaks some other program(s). How in bloody hell can i use this shit?
Well, almost my entire family uses Linux, and they hardly NOTICE!  The ones who DON'T use Linux use Macs, and that is based on Unix, not really a big difference.

I have never seen "this install one program it breaks another program" issue.  I have had issues where after years of use and program/library installs, the package manager gets the dependencies fouled up and eventually it is time to install a whole new system.  But, that usually takes years to happen.

Jon
 

Offline Bud

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Re: EU copytight law madness. It has passed. It will become a reality.
« Reply #69 on: September 19, 2018, 08:18:06 pm »
Lucky you. I have seen it as mad as requirements to install of some libraries FROM A PARTICULAR REPOSITORY even though it was of A SAME library version as anywhere else. otherwise the program did not work as expected. Some software requires having installed full Development  kits which may be enormous size and take hours. This is insane , you know.
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Offline rstofer

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Re: EU copytight law madness. It has passed. It will become a reality.
« Reply #70 on: September 20, 2018, 01:28:38 am »
I wasn't talking about a crawler that finds links, I was talking about a robot that goes through all user supplied content and deletes everything that it thinks might be a copyright violation

That's going to be a problem.  Right now they do some of this by hand.  I guess they're going to have to look at every file they serve and review all of the sites they link.  A start would be to not serve up music or videos of any kind whatsoever.  Perhaps open up the ZIP files to see what's in them or preclude compressed files altogether.

But it's not happening in the US (AFAIK) and we have DRM, such as it is.  It really doesn't matter what the EU does because our companies can just not accept a connection.  Apparently, that is already started.

It's going to be fun to watch!

 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: EU copytight law madness. It has passed. It will become a reality.
« Reply #71 on: September 20, 2018, 01:38:31 am »
That's going to be a problem.  Right now they do some of this by hand.  I guess they're going to have to look at every file they serve and review all of the sites they link.  A start would be to not serve up music or videos of any kind whatsoever.  Perhaps open up the ZIP files to see what's in them or preclude compressed files altogether.

But it's not happening in the US (AFAIK) and we have DRM, such as it is.  It really doesn't matter what the EU does because our companies can just not accept a connection.  Apparently, that is already started.

It's going to be fun to watch!
You said something similar before, but you keep forgetting a few vital things. The EU market is very large and hugely profitable and most US companies operating there are publicly traded. Not accepting connections simply isn't possible because the shareholders won't accept it. It's capitalism in its purest form.
 

Offline rstofer

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Re: EU copytight law madness. It has passed. It will become a reality.
« Reply #72 on: September 20, 2018, 02:25:08 am »
That's going to be a problem.  Right now they do some of this by hand.  I guess they're going to have to look at every file they serve and review all of the sites they link.  A start would be to not serve up music or videos of any kind whatsoever.  Perhaps open up the ZIP files to see what's in them or preclude compressed files altogether.

But it's not happening in the US (AFAIK) and we have DRM, such as it is.  It really doesn't matter what the EU does because our companies can just not accept a connection.  Apparently, that is already started.

It's going to be fun to watch!
You said something similar before, but you keep forgetting a few vital things. The EU market is very large and hugely profitable and most US companies operating there are publicly traded. Not accepting connections simply isn't possible because the shareholders won't accept it. It's capitalism in its purest form.
Nor will US subscribers accept reduced replies just because the EU doesn't like them.  So it really comes down to separate providers and the EU would really like to create their own Google/Facebook.

Reply #6 of this thread mentions that the Los Angeles Times won't accept connections from the EU.  Not for this latest copyright issue but from the new privacy laws.  As more and more US companies learn about these laws the number of blocking sites will surely increase.

The Internet will soon be fragmented - an island here, an island there, no way to do business between them.  That's fine, I don't buy a lot out of the EU anyway.  Sometimes things from the UK though...



 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: EU copytight law madness. It has passed. It will become a reality.
« Reply #73 on: September 20, 2018, 02:39:38 am »
Nor will US subscribers accept reduced replies just because the EU doesn't like them.  So it really comes down to separate providers and the EU would really like to create their own Google/Facebook.

Reply #6 of this thread mentions that the Los Angeles Times won't accept connections from the EU.  Not for this latest copyright issue but from the new privacy laws.  As more and more US companies learn about these laws the number of blocking sites will surely increase.

The Internet will soon be fragmented - an island here, an island there, no way to do business between them.  That's fine, I don't buy a lot out of the EU anyway.  Sometimes things from the UK though...
Not many EU residents will be interested in the Los Angeles Times and it has therefore little to lose by blocking access. In short, nobody really cares. If EU residents actually visit a site in relevant numbers it starts losing out when those are blocked. Facebook and Google simply can't afford to do this. Of course, it's trivial to still access whatever website you please even with geoblocking enabled.

There are also reports that the GPDR has actually improved the performance and loading times of many websites in the EU, US and elsewhere when accessed from the EU due to numerous tracking facilities being disabled. This can be a difference of many seconds and multiple MBs.
 

Online coppice

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Re: EU copytight law madness. It has passed. It will become a reality.
« Reply #74 on: September 20, 2018, 05:46:19 pm »
Reply #6 of this thread mentions that the Los Angeles Times won't accept connections from the EU.  Not for this latest copyright issue but from the new privacy laws.  As more and more US companies learn about these laws the number of blocking sites will surely increase.
Many US media companies have blocked access from outside the US for years, as it generates little advertising revenue for them. The setups are often quite odd. CBS, for example, has gone through periods of blocking access and periods of allowing it. However, when they block access and you use one of the numerous partial VPN tools to bypass the blocking, you are fed ads relevant to your own location. It seems that at some level they are properly set up to get ad revenue wherever you are. Of course, there are issues of geographic control beyond just ad revenue. Many TV shows, and often things like comic strips in newspapers, are only licenced by the media company for distribution in certain markets.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2018, 05:53:29 pm by coppice »
 


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