Author Topic: EU mandantory chat control  (Read 15608 times)

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Offline Simon

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Re: EU mandantory chat control
« Reply #75 on: May 15, 2022, 09:17:08 pm »
Freedoms of expression stuff usually relates to public speach, what you say to your mates no one could give a toss. Now they may want to stop terrorists etc, fine, but if they turn up a text you sent to a mate saying you hate a particular minority does that class as hate speech? nope or at least I suspect legally they will struggle and erm, resources? never mind the resources to detect, now that they have discovered that 1 in 2 people have some unhealthy views that if said to the offendable party or otherwise in public would get them in the nick but in a private chat is not the same, how do they prosecute half the population?

I don't even see the need for all of this end to end encryption no one can ever break. It's a need created by the mere fact that it was provided. For me it's more of a pain, I change phone, well that's all my whatsapp messages gone! yep, oh you want to use whatsapp on your PC, sorry can't see that last message you just sent or received on your phone, it's gone mad and signal is even worse. Since when did we have a problem that needed such unbreakable encryption - we never did. Communications are already sunt encrpted, but they it seems to work now is that it's impossible for even the user to retain their stuff never mind the go,vernment.

My sister insists, or rather her husband does on using signal, so I get all the photos and videos of my niece on signal - it's a pain in the arse trying to get that stuff out of signal thanks to the encryption paranoia! because family chats and photos/videos need high end encryption - for what? oh and needless to say, he who decided to use signal has never donated a penny to them! what a fucked up society we live in, there is one thing the conspiracy theorists have right, one word - sheeple! we care so much for our privacy while we literally give it all away to facebook who all these idiots who refuse to use whatsapp still use.

I'm sick of hearing about privacy and snooping from people who broadcast their lives 24/7!
 
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Offline Zero999

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Re: EU mandantory chat control
« Reply #76 on: May 15, 2022, 09:54:11 pm »
Freedoms of expression stuff usually relates to public speach, what you say to your mates no one could give a toss. Now they may want to stop terrorists etc, fine, but if they turn up a text you sent to a mate saying you hate a particular minority does that class as hate speech? nope or at least I suspect legally they will struggle and erm, resources? never mind the resources to detect, now that they have discovered that 1 in 2 people have some unhealthy views that if said to the offendable party or otherwise in public would get them in the nick but in a private chat is not the same, how do they prosecute half the population?
The Scottish government would disagree with you on that.

Quote
From its troubled beginnings, the Hate Crime Bill has been altered significantly. Changes were made during cross-party efforts in what some MSPs described as "Holyrood at its best".

Yet even with that scrutiny, concerns remain. Offences can now be committed even in private, an abandonment of an earlier "dwelling defence" in race hate law.

Even with the Scottish government's insistence that the bar for prosecution is high, there are those who still believe this is an example of interference in private and family life. Why should any government, they ask, decide what can and can't be said in the privacy of one's home?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-56364821

The bar for what constitutes hate speech is very low. Hampshire police spent a long time trying to track down someone for putting up posters saying "It's okay to be white.". I believe this is because the same phrase has been used by white supremacists,  but that shouldn't make the phrase in itself hate speech, as anyone who hasn't been indoctrinated with critical race theory, would agree with it. Either way they wouldn't bother if it said "It's okay to be black/Asian/Muslim etc." and they should arguably spend their time tracking down real criminals.
 

Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: EU mandantory chat control
« Reply #77 on: May 15, 2022, 10:39:34 pm »
The ECHR you linked to has an article about freedom of expression. The paragraph describing the exceptions is longer than the one describing the guaranteed freedom itself, and of course gives all powers to governments for passing laws to restrict it as much as is convenient.

To be compared with the original Universal Declaration of Human Rights (1948) which guaranteed freedom of expression without any restriction.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2022, 10:42:26 pm by SiliconWizard »
 
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Offline bd139

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Re: EU mandantory chat control
« Reply #78 on: May 16, 2022, 07:43:04 am »
Freedoms of expression stuff usually relates to public speach, what you say to your mates no one could give a toss. Now they may want to stop terrorists etc, fine, but if they turn up a text you sent to a mate saying you hate a particular minority does that class as hate speech? nope or at least I suspect legally they will struggle and erm, resources? never mind the resources to detect, now that they have discovered that 1 in 2 people have some unhealthy views that if said to the offendable party or otherwise in public would get them in the nick but in a private chat is not the same, how do they prosecute half the population?

I don't even see the need for all of this end to end encryption no one can ever break. It's a need created by the mere fact that it was provided. For me it's more of a pain, I change phone, well that's all my whatsapp messages gone! yep, oh you want to use whatsapp on your PC, sorry can't see that last message you just sent or received on your phone, it's gone mad and signal is even worse. Since when did we have a problem that needed such unbreakable encryption - we never did. Communications are already sunt encrpted, but they it seems to work now is that it's impossible for even the user to retain their stuff never mind the go,vernment.

My sister insists, or rather her husband does on using signal, so I get all the photos and videos of my niece on signal - it's a pain in the arse trying to get that stuff out of signal thanks to the encryption paranoia! because family chats and photos/videos need high end encryption - for what? oh and needless to say, he who decided to use signal has never donated a penny to them! what a fucked up society we live in, there is one thing the conspiracy theorists have right, one word - sheeple! we care so much for our privacy while we literally give it all away to facebook who all these idiots who refuse to use whatsapp still use.

I'm sick of hearing about privacy and snooping from people who broadcast their lives 24/7!

Just a point on privacy and messaging.

Anything that you tell anyone else is not private any more. At no point can you trust the other party not to distribute it or ensure that their endpoint is secure. The biggest attack vector to privacy is loose mouths. Ergo private messaging is a misnomer.

Signal / Telegram etc are pointless if you want absolute privacy. Don’t say stuff.
 

Online tom66

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Re: EU mandantory chat control
« Reply #79 on: May 16, 2022, 08:00:25 am »
The thing is it’s difficult for 50 people to actually do any damage.

My point was to throw an extreme in and see what mid ground comes out as sensible.

Yes and it's also impossible for 50 people to organise anything sensible, so we'd not have roads outside of our small settlements, healthcare, scientific advances, etc.

You can disagree with the existence of large bureaucratic organisations like the EU without making statements like this which fail simple tests.  Overall I think the EU is more positive than it is negative.
 

Offline tszaboo

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Re: EU mandantory chat control
« Reply #80 on: May 16, 2022, 09:31:29 am »
I love how this thread has the most comments by a bunch of English and American people.

"I don't know how things are done there, but you are doing it wrong!"
 
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Offline MadScientist

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Re: EU mandantory chat control
« Reply #81 on: May 16, 2022, 10:30:22 am »
I love how this thread has the most comments by a bunch of English and American people.

"I don't know how things are done there, but you are doing it wrong!"

One of that group hasn’t any say, the other we kicked out.
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Offline MadScientist

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Re: EU mandantory chat control
« Reply #82 on: May 16, 2022, 10:35:23 am »
You do understand that a resolution passed in the eu parliament has virtually zero standing or chance of being passed into law.

The thing is, this whole EU parliament thing.  Started out with good intentions, with a simple agreement as regards cows/beef and butter, to make a common market, between a small number of countries.  Which, eventually because of (political) feature creep, became the EU parliament and stuff, we have today.

I don't know the precise details.  But they seem to discuss and vote in, certain things.  Which seem to be put into actual laws, of the individual EU member states.

I think this mandatory chat control, is a very, very dangerous and slippery slope, in the control of free speech, and in effect news sources (indirectly).  If you look at Russia, an apparently very significant way their government is able to keep control of its people.  Is by basically lying all the time, in various TV media/newspapers/etc.
Even to the point of starting a full on war, while at the same time claiming Russia is being attacked, and there is no war (special operations).

So the EU, really is playing with fire, big time.  With the proposal/creation of new laws like this.  There is also the danger of a Trump like leader, getting into power.  Then using those new laws and infrastructure (information), to control the people.

Arguably, we need chat and things to be relatively free from political interference.  Because of nonsense, such as the Cambridge analytica scandal.

TL;DR
I think this new EU plans, are potentially very dangerous and a very, very bad idea.

It’s only in the U.K. where this nonsense argument about a common trading area is brought up. European integration was always the intention and so  the institutions. In Ireland political integration enjoys 70% support or higher as expressed regularly on the EU treaty referendums

As you say you don’t understand how eu law making works so don’t speculate. Given the government you currently have in the U.K. that is considering breaking an international treaty it wrote and signed up too , I think I’d prefer to be governed by the sane in Brussels.

The U.K. is the most highly monitored society in Western Europe. I fix at home first
« Last Edit: May 16, 2022, 10:37:20 am by MadScientist »
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Online tom66

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Re: EU mandantory chat control
« Reply #83 on: May 16, 2022, 10:42:13 am »
I love how this thread has the most comments by a bunch of English and American people.

"I don't know how things are done there, but you are doing it wrong!"

Meh, I never supported Brexit and I hope one day that we'll go back, but I'm not a fool and can see that's probably not going to happen within my lifetime.  Greatest mistake this country has made in a very long time and we'll be paying the price forever.

The NI border issue really just is the tip of the iceberg when it comes to this kind of crap - it just is impossible to see a situation there that won't devolve into "the Troubles, pt. II" if the UK and Ireland continue to diverge on trade regulations.
 
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Offline bd139

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Re: EU mandantory chat control
« Reply #84 on: May 16, 2022, 11:40:23 am »
One of that group hasn’t any say, the other we kicked out.

Hey we kicked ourselves out.

(and no I didn't vote for it)
 

Offline MK14

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Re: EU mandantory chat control
« Reply #85 on: May 16, 2022, 11:51:07 am »
It’s only in the U.K. where this nonsense argument about a common trading area is brought up. European integration was always the intention and so  the institutions. In Ireland political integration enjoys 70% support or higher as expressed regularly on the EU treaty referendums

As you say you don’t understand how eu law making works so don’t speculate. Given the government you currently have in the U.K. that is considering breaking an international treaty it wrote and signed up too , I think I’d prefer to be governed by the sane in Brussels.

The U.K. is the most highly monitored society in Western Europe. I fix at home first

I can't/won't respond to that, as it would stray too far from the topic of discussion, and could be called 'pure political talk'.  But you (maybe?) and others made a valid point, a society of just 50 people, isolated and on their own, could have a number of deficiencies, compared to modern society expectations.

But in modern times (compared to other modern countries), Switzerland has some kind of non-centralized (as such) government system.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics_of_Switzerland

My (hopefully on topic) feelings on the EU mandatory chat control, are that it might potentially cause an unacceptable loss of privacy.  It could easily be a slippery slope, to an overly authoritative state/EU control of things.  A bit like the Great FireWall (Wall) of China.  I.e. It could seriously mess up the political landscape.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Firewall                    EDIT: Simple typo
« Last Edit: May 16, 2022, 07:46:27 pm by MK14 »
 
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Online tom66

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Re: EU mandantory chat control
« Reply #86 on: May 16, 2022, 12:15:38 pm »
Yes, the EU encrypted chat policy is utter crap.

However this kind of thing gets brought up repeatedly and ultimately fails because open standards like 'Signal' exist where it is impossible to decrypt the messages because the keys are not shared with the server.  All the server knows is when and where certain accounts are communicating.

This is just typical politicians acting like they can solve a complex societal issue (child abuse) with a simple hammer (ban encryption) rather than the more difficult one: better supervision of children (parents, carers),  less use of social media by youngsters (well understood to be harmful),  and better treatments and detection of potential offenders before they commit acts against real children.  A controversial opinion perhaps but I do not believe such individuals deserves to be jailed until they have intended to, or actually committed an act against a child,  up until that point, they can be treated by medical professionals and carefully monitored.

As long as open source encryption technology exists then end to end encryption will not disappear.  Making it illegal will be effectively impossible.  You can make cracking Blu-Rays illegal, but people will still do it, because it is virtually impossible to detect. 
 
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Offline tszaboo

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Re: EU mandantory chat control
« Reply #87 on: May 16, 2022, 12:46:56 pm »
I love how this thread has the most comments by a bunch of English and American people.

"I don't know how things are done there, but you are doing it wrong!"

Meh, I never supported Brexit and I hope one day that we'll go back, but I'm not a fool and can see that's probably not going to happen within my lifetime.  Greatest mistake this country has made in a very long time and we'll be paying the price forever.

The NI border issue really just is the tip of the iceberg when it comes to this kind of crap - it just is impossible to see a situation there that won't devolve into "the Troubles, pt. II" if the UK and Ireland continue to diverge on trade regulations.
I'm a strong believer that a person is not responsible for their politicians, and the elected idiots or their country.
I'm from a country that went back to be a totally mad autocracy and kleptocracy. I stood up from there and left, I've been gone for a decade now. Took down the flag, moved out of the borders and all I am doing is go for elections (which is a farce) every few years, maybe it will be different this time.

One of that group hasn’t any say, the other we kicked out.

Hey we kicked ourselves out.

(and no I didn't vote for it)
There was a time when UK was doing everything in their power to back out of Brexit, and the EU was telling you guys to eat what you cooked.
And now please go back on topic, not every single discussion online has to be turned into US and UK politics.
 

Offline PlainName

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Re: EU mandantory chat control
« Reply #88 on: May 16, 2022, 01:08:32 pm »
Quote
This is just typical politicians acting like they can solve a complex societal issue (child abuse)

Child abuse is just the excuse for rolling stuff out. Before that it was terrorists, but then they found kiddy fiddling had a better impact.

Quote
As long as open source encryption technology exists then end to end encryption will not disappear.  Making it illegal will be effectively impossible.

Just like not disclosing your phone password on demand is a great workaround? Fine if you don't mind being put away 'because obviously what you have hidden must be really incriminating'. Don't forget that they don't have to nick every single transgression, just enough to make the point and put reasonable fear into the population.
 

Online Monkeh

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Re: EU mandantory chat control
« Reply #89 on: May 16, 2022, 02:29:41 pm »
There was a time when UK was doing everything in their power to back out of Brexit, and the EU was telling you guys to eat what you cooked.

I see you get just as warped a view as everyone else from the media..
 

Offline tszaboo

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Re: EU mandantory chat control
« Reply #90 on: May 16, 2022, 02:42:17 pm »
There was a time when UK was doing everything in their power to back out of Brexit, and the EU was telling you guys to eat what you cooked.

I see you get just as warped a view as everyone else from the media..
Just to be clear: I don't care what you think about my political or worldview, nor did I ask you to offer your opinion about it. It's none of your business.
 

Online Monkeh

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Re: EU mandantory chat control
« Reply #91 on: May 16, 2022, 03:02:08 pm »
There was a time when UK was doing everything in their power to back out of Brexit, and the EU was telling you guys to eat what you cooked.

I see you get just as warped a view as everyone else from the media..
Just to be clear: I don't care what you think about my political or worldview, nor did I ask you to offer your opinion about it. It's none of your business.

Then keep your comments on ours out of public places?
« Last Edit: May 16, 2022, 03:04:39 pm by Monkeh »
 

Offline tszaboo

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Re: EU mandantory chat control
« Reply #92 on: May 16, 2022, 03:15:24 pm »
There was a time when UK was doing everything in their power to back out of Brexit, and the EU was telling you guys to eat what you cooked.

I see you get just as warped a view as everyone else from the media..
Just to be clear: I don't care what you think about my political or worldview, nor did I ask you to offer your opinion about it. It's none of your business.

Then keep your comments on ours out of public places?
Or maybe don't go around and insult people, like you do.
 

Online Monkeh

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Re: EU mandantory chat control
« Reply #93 on: May 16, 2022, 03:47:16 pm »
Or maybe don't go around and insult people, like you do.

I think I insulted the media, not you. Feel free to take offense, though - I do at your comments, let alone attitude.
 

Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: EU mandantory chat control
« Reply #94 on: May 16, 2022, 04:36:26 pm »
Dunno what's the "ideal" number of people for a given organized society.
50 obviously looks a bit small for achieving anything other than covering very basic needs, and too few people may trigger other issues. Such as the need to have even more exchanges between groups of people (if just for reproduction, you don't wan't inbreeding), which could be a major source of conflicts. Yes, that's what we did thousands of years ago (and that's what some tribes still do nowadays), but that just doesn't scale up much. Not saying that "scaling up" is necessarily a goal either. But whether we want it or not, we are 8 billion+ now and we need to accomodate for that.

More seriously, I've read that for a "modern" type of society, 10 million people would be about the maximum to guarantee reasonable democracy (if that's what you're after) and avoid excessive lobbying, government authoritarianism, etc. It seems to make some sense, considering that among the most developed and "modern" countries in the world, the ones with 10 million people or less are usually classified highest in the democracy/well-being/freedom of press and expression/... indices.

« Last Edit: May 16, 2022, 04:39:40 pm by SiliconWizard »
 

Offline PlainName

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Re: EU mandantory chat control
« Reply #95 on: May 16, 2022, 04:59:50 pm »
Quote
More seriously, I've read that for a "modern" type of society, 10 million people would be about the maximum to guarantee reasonable democracy

No doubt, but 50 aren't going to agree on anything, never mind 10 million. The solution is obvious: you have relatively small groups who select a spokesperson to deal with other groups. Again, you'll end up with more spokespeople than can agree to breath the same air, so you repeat that (groups of groups) until you've run out of bodies.

Gosh, looks like you've just replicated councils, governments, the EU/USA, etc. And someone, or some few, will have to oversee it all. It's extremely likely that total dickwads will be at the top, because they're the ones that a) have the ability to work their way up there and b) the determination to do so. Reasonable people need not apply.
 
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Offline Nominal Animal

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Re: EU mandantory chat control
« Reply #96 on: May 16, 2022, 05:47:27 pm »
Selective application of laws is a sign of unjust, unfair governance.  Fascist dictatorship, really, using the traditional definition of the terms.

These "hate speech" laws –– which, by the way, are nothing such, and instead are exactly intended for selective application; for arbitrary, unjust governance –– hurt me, personally.

I do not believe in defining individuals by arbitrary immutable characteristics, or treating them as representatives of their "protected group".  That is, I do treat everyone I interact with as an equal by default.  However, I do like examining beliefs and mores and cultures, and often assume the role of advocatus diaboli for the sake of such examination and discussion; that is, I can easily discuss a topic as if I held a position that I do not in reality hold.  For thousands of years, this has been known to be a very effective and efficient method of examination; see e.g. Socratic method.

(Those that I interact with directly do not seem to have any problem with this.  Not many agree with all or even most of my opinions, and I find that is good, because it presents opportunities for me to learn and grow.  It is those who overhear that seem to delight in attacking me.  For example, during a single day, at a Finnish University, I've been called both a "dirty commie" and a "far-right elitist exploiter".  I admit that I took weird joy at "the world's only socialist CEO" label, though.)

I am no longer allowed to examine or discuss why certain groups in Finland have 17-fold likelihood of committing sexual crimes than the national average, because such examination is now considered incitement against a "protected group", and is hate speech, unless I myself am perceived as a member of that group.  Thing is, the probable underlying causes for that are completely incidental to them also being part of that "protected group"; that is, the reasons have very little to do with that protected group!  It is like labeling the discussion about female serial killers, misogynist: against all women.

And this indeed is one of the intended effects of these laws: the end of discussion on negative effects of political decisions.

The public will just have to bear the practical effects in silence.  Which is very nice for the politicians: no embarrassments or having to admit making any errors anymore!  Nice!  At least in Finland, the "reporters" have already stated publicly that they "do not want to report bad things done by good people", so the "most free media in the world" is already towing the line nicely.

This is not healthy.  The lack of discussion will polarize those who feel the society is ignoring or suppressing them.  This will happen on all sides.  The arbitrary application of these speech-restricting laws will just turbocharge that.  The end result is violent chaos.

Me, I prefer the uncomfortableness of words and concepts to actual physical violence.  Apparently, I'm in the small minority at least here in Finland, especially when looking at the court decisions.  (You are likely to get bigger fines from bad words than punching someone in the gut.)
 
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Offline Simon

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Re: EU mandantory chat control
« Reply #97 on: May 16, 2022, 06:11:13 pm »
Freedoms of expression stuff usually relates to public speach, what you say to your mates no one could give a toss. Now they may want to stop terrorists etc, fine, but if they turn up a text you sent to a mate saying you hate a particular minority does that class as hate speech? nope or at least I suspect legally they will struggle and erm, resources? never mind the resources to detect, now that they have discovered that 1 in 2 people have some unhealthy views that if said to the offendable party or otherwise in public would get them in the nick but in a private chat is not the same, how do they prosecute half the population?

I don't even see the need for all of this end to end encryption no one can ever break. It's a need created by the mere fact that it was provided. For me it's more of a pain, I change phone, well that's all my whatsapp messages gone! yep, oh you want to use whatsapp on your PC, sorry can't see that last message you just sent or received on your phone, it's gone mad and signal is even worse. Since when did we have a problem that needed such unbreakable encryption - we never did. Communications are already sunt encrpted, but they it seems to work now is that it's impossible for even the user to retain their stuff never mind the go,vernment.

My sister insists, or rather her husband does on using signal, so I get all the photos and videos of my niece on signal - it's a pain in the arse trying to get that stuff out of signal thanks to the encryption paranoia! because family chats and photos/videos need high end encryption - for what? oh and needless to say, he who decided to use signal has never donated a penny to them! what a fucked up society we live in, there is one thing the conspiracy theorists have right, one word - sheeple! we care so much for our privacy while we literally give it all away to facebook who all these idiots who refuse to use whatsapp still use.

I'm sick of hearing about privacy and snooping from people who broadcast their lives 24/7!

Just a point on privacy and messaging.

Anything that you tell anyone else is not private any more. At no point can you trust the other party not to distribute it or ensure that their endpoint is secure. The biggest attack vector to privacy is loose mouths. Ergo private messaging is a misnomer.

Signal / Telegram etc are pointless if you want absolute privacy. Don’t say stuff.

Yes exactly, but oh no, your privacy is threatened, use our app! Everything is end to end encrypted, as far as I am aware you can't use an app on a phone that is not which is why the VPN's these youtubers shill are virtually scams. But in the name of you buying into these services they can be bloody hard work to use because the fact that phones encrypt data stored and use encrypted communications was not enough.

But then maybe we do need all this scrutiny, our prime minister was investigated for things the proof or disproof of which lay on a phone he no longer used so the whatsapp messages were lost, so yes we obviously do need this stuff to monitor our corrupt politicians :)
 
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Offline Simon

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Re: EU mandantory chat control
« Reply #98 on: May 16, 2022, 06:13:08 pm »
Selective application of laws is a sign of unjust, unfair governance.  Fascist dictatorship, really, using the traditional definition of the terms.

These "hate speech" laws –– which, by the way, are nothing such, and instead are exactly intended for selective application; for arbitrary, unjust governance –– hurt me, personally.

I pointed this out to my local police force who claimed that "you have a right to be you" but this was meant of course for "minorities". When I pointed out that I had been targeted for being me but was ignored as I did not fit any prescribed minority I was blocked!
 
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Offline Simon

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Re: EU mandantory chat control
« Reply #99 on: May 16, 2022, 06:14:53 pm »
Quote
More seriously, I've read that for a "modern" type of society, 10 million people would be about the maximum to guarantee reasonable democracy

No doubt, but 50 aren't going to agree on anything, never mind 10 million. The solution is obvious: you have relatively small groups who select a spokesperson to deal with other groups. Again, you'll end up with more spokespeople than can agree to breath the same air, so you repeat that (groups of groups) until you've run out of bodies.

Gosh, looks like you've just replicated councils, governments, the EU/USA, etc. And someone, or some few, will have to oversee it all. It's extremely likely that total dickwads will be at the top, because they're the ones that a) have the ability to work their way up there and b) the determination to do so. Reasonable people need not apply.


Yep, if 50 people can run and fund a modern society I'd like to be put in touch so that I can create my own cult.
 
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