Author Topic: EU tariffs on US goods come into force  (Read 9813 times)

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Offline CJay

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Re: EU tariffs on US goods come into force
« Reply #75 on: June 26, 2018, 08:01:20 pm »
Tommy Robinson should be free.

And all the Nazis who marched to support him agree with you that the serial criminal Stephen Yaxley Lennon should be free to assault another police officer, to commit fraud and breach the terms of his suspended sentence by committing exactly the same offence again.

Fin, I've had enough of this now, we're descending into far right bullshit and it's not worth arguing with trolls.
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Offline GeorgeOfTheJungle

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Re: EU tariffs on US goods come into force
« Reply #76 on: June 26, 2018, 08:15:15 pm »
Did he attack anybody? Wasn't he merely reporting just like the BBC and others?
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Offline innkeeper

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Re: EU tariffs on US goods come into force
« Reply #77 on: June 26, 2018, 08:16:39 pm »
not sure what any of this has to do with tariffs...

Tariffs, if used to protect a countries business products and services, are a good thing and helps everyone.
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Online Marco

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Re: EU tariffs on US goods come into force
« Reply #78 on: June 26, 2018, 08:22:49 pm »
Ignoring the 3 months for filming inside the court, from the perspective of a more liberal nation like the US or the Netherlands Tommy Robinson shouldn't be in jail. Of course we don't have a jury system, but the US does.
 

Offline Nusa

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Re: EU tariffs on US goods come into force
« Reply #79 on: June 26, 2018, 11:06:40 pm »
not sure what any of this has to do with tariffs...

Tariffs, if used to protect a countries business products and services, are a good thing and helps everyone.

Sounds like you're in favor of both the US and EU tariffs, then. Helps everyone, after all! Using the dictionary definition of "everyone" of course, not the Trump definition of "me".
 

Offline innkeeper

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Re: EU tariffs on US goods come into force
« Reply #80 on: June 27, 2018, 02:20:04 am »
yes.  I pretty much outlined the details why in graph form earlier too.
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Offline Nusa

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Re: EU tariffs on US goods come into force
« Reply #81 on: June 27, 2018, 02:37:20 am »
yes.  I pretty much outlined the details why in graph form earlier too.

Without agreeing or disagreeing, I'll note those charts were clearly aimed at "everyone" = USA, not "everyone" = WORLD
 

Offline hobbyfans

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Re: EU tariffs on US goods come into force
« Reply #82 on: June 27, 2018, 03:10:03 am »
So I must place orders now to save a little cash?
 

Offline Bud

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Re: EU tariffs on US goods come into force
« Reply #83 on: June 27, 2018, 05:04:31 am »
And all the Nazis who marched to support him agree with you that the serial criminal Stephen Yaxley Lennon should be free to assault another police officer, to commit fraud and breach the terms of his suspended sentence by committing exactly the same offence again.


Not surprisingly, the Godwin's law is approaching this thread.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2018, 05:06:43 am by Bud »
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Online Tomorokoshi

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Re: EU tariffs on US goods come into force
« Reply #84 on: June 27, 2018, 05:15:18 am »
And all the Nazis who marched to support him agree with you that the serial criminal Stephen Yaxley Lennon should be free to assault another police officer, to commit fraud and breach the terms of his suspended sentence by committing exactly the same offence again.


Not surprisingly, the Godwin's law is approaching this thread.

From:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law

Quote
In December 2015, Godwin commented on the Nazi and fascist comparisons being made by several articles on Republican presidential candidate Donald Trump, saying: "If you're thoughtful about it and show some real awareness of history, go ahead and refer to Hitler when you talk about Trump. Or any other politician." On August 13, 2017, Godwin made similar remarks on social networking websites Facebook and Twitter with respect to the two previous days' Unite the Right rally in Charlottesville, Virginia, endorsing and encouraging efforts to compare its alt-right organizers to Nazis.
 

Online nctnico

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Re: EU tariffs on US goods come into force
« Reply #85 on: June 27, 2018, 06:00:39 am »
Still there are no winners in a trade war or a real war, just losers of different magnatude.

Yes, there are certainly losers, and the USA has been loosing at trade for the past 43 years consecutively... yes 43 years of a negative trade balance!
It would be interesting to find out where most of the money has been spend on. My guess is that most of the debt is caused by buying weapons.
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Offline stj

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Re: EU tariffs on US goods come into force
« Reply #86 on: June 27, 2018, 10:50:39 am »
i was told that in the u.s. manufacturers must count items as they are made and pay tax on them in expectation of sales.
if that's true then the u.s. is being sabotaged from within!!
 

Online Marco

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Re: EU tariffs on US goods come into force
« Reply #87 on: June 27, 2018, 11:07:36 am »
It would be interesting to find out where most of the money has been spend on. My guess is that most of the debt is caused by buying weapons.

They mostly don't buy their weapons offshore, so not really. It started with oil, then an avalanching flood of items from the rest of the world.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2018, 12:29:14 pm by Marco »
 

Offline Tepe

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Re: EU tariffs on US goods come into force
« Reply #88 on: June 27, 2018, 11:37:09 am »
oh, the 1920's you mean back when the USA had very little national debt, and when the was very profitable and people themselves were doing well in the USA...think they called those times the roaring twenties.
Remember how the 1920's ended.
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Offline Zero999

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Re: EU tariffs on US goods come into force
« Reply #89 on: June 27, 2018, 12:27:30 pm »
What bothers me isn't just this silly trade war, it's also the current situation of politics (right-wing, nationalist, populist). This resembles a period we had about 100 years ago. Hopefully we don't make the same mistakes again and repeat history.
oh, the 1920's you mean back when the USA had very little national debt, and when the was very profitable and people themselves were doing well in the USA...think they called those times the roaring twenties. That would be such a mistake  ::) why would we cant prosperity!
He was referring to the nationalist policies in many European nations at the time, which the current US government is drawing inspiration from.

Quote
AHHHH... i know ... it doesn't fit the left wing agenda.  In order for the left wing to advance their agenda, they need to make the populace dependent on the government.  people, not dependent on the government typically rejects left-wing ideologies.
Everyone has been dependent on the government, to some degree or another for a long time. Don't like it? Go and live in a country without a strong government: no laws or taxes to worry about! Just don't complain when so can't find a job, so have to be self-sufficient and make sure you have enough weapons to defend your family against the local savages.

Quote
on Tariffs in general, they serve a positive purpose.
Tarrifs help your country keeps its individual economy going, and seeks imports for items that are not practically produced inside their own borders, and exports those items that are impractical to produce in the countries they export to. in the case of the usa, post-WWII there was a need for the USA help prop up and rebuild the economies around the world, tariffs got in the way of that, but, now, those days are long gone. time for the USA to rebuild itself!
Clearly not. They make it harder for the US to cooperate with other nations. If you want to live somewhere which relies very little on foreign trade, then move to North Korea.

Quote
Another outcome of the lack of tariffs is it opens countries up to devastating their businesses where products and services can be produced in the country and then puts them at a national security risk in not being able to produce those products and services in a national crisis when trade abruptly breaks down between two countries. 
That's why it's good to be friendly with more than one country. If something goes wrong with the relationship with one country and they will not trade, then there's always somewhere else to go to. The current US government just pissed off most of the world, which is not sensible.

Quote
I believe its a misconception that some people think any business needs to compete on the global market, well, no truly it does not. It is good if they can, and especially if it's not at the cost of devastating the industries globally. 
Yes, it's possible to close off to the world and just have one internal market, but it's not good for economic growth. Various countries have tried this in the past and have had to reverse the policy or fall behind the rest of the world.

Quote
It doesn't serve the interests of the business or country if the goods or services cannot be produced in the country, it does serve the ideology of a one world government structure by forcing a global economy and therefore making countries totally reliant on each other, and needing to bend to the will of global control or centralized control of that trade. we can see some of this with the WTO for example.

Some people call tariffs protectionism as if that's a bad thing.... its not a bad thing, its a damn good thing for all economies.  by not having tariffs there is pressure to continually depress the value of peoples work, and the value of goods and services, and we are all being dragged down ... whats the point in that. oh I know, we're back to the left wing agenda again where a people dependent on government are open to left-wing ideologies....
History has shown otherwise. Tariffs are just another tax and you right wingers don't like those. Would you be happy to buy a product, made in the US, at three times the cost of the same thing made in China? Also note that moving production back to the US, wouldn't save many jobs, since manufactures will just rely more on automation.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2018, 05:57:38 pm by Hero999 »
 

Online Marco

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Re: EU tariffs on US goods come into force
« Reply #90 on: June 27, 2018, 12:31:23 pm »
The right wing is generally nationalist, so autarky is valued ... although it's not inherently right wing.
 

Offline MT

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Re: EU tariffs on US goods come into force
« Reply #91 on: June 27, 2018, 12:42:12 pm »
This is exactly why I stopped replying political threads :horse:...
The human race hasn't found a good way to keep every free thought happy yet, and such a way will never be found.
We dont know the future in 100 years, and yes political threads have tendency to freak out, but if i was a american citizen i would, before puking billion numbers on Trumps trade war etc, have a serious thought on where the 21 Trillion dollars went? (with a silent finger pointing at the general direction of the Pentagon) im happy in not a american citizen.
 

Offline innkeeper

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Re: EU tariffs on US goods come into force
« Reply #92 on: June 27, 2018, 06:42:43 pm »
@hero999

OK I'll bite...
whats your formula for reversing the trade deficit the USA has been suffering with over the last 43+ years since the reduction or elimination of tariffs for goods and services coming into the USA.

In my view, the continual bleeding off countries net worth from trade deficit cannot be sustained forever, and as you can see in the graph on post #53.

....obviously, you don't believe tariffs I can respect that for sure...I do believe in tariffs as they worked well in the past.

So, what is the solution to the problem? 






« Last Edit: June 27, 2018, 09:29:45 pm by innkeeper »
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Offline Rick Law

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Re: EU tariffs on US goods come into force
« Reply #93 on: June 27, 2018, 07:31:47 pm »
...
on Tariffs in general, they serve a positive purpose.
Tarrifs help your country keeps its individual economy going, and seeks imports for items that are not practically produced inside their own borders, and exports those items that are impractical to produce in the countries they export to. in the case of the usa, post-WWII there was a need for the USA help prop up and rebuild the economies around the world, tariffs got in the way of that, but, now, those days are long gone. time for the USA to rebuild itself!

Another outcome of the lack of tariffs is it opens countries up to devastating their businesses where products and services can be produced in the country and then puts them at a national security risk in not being able to produce those products and services in a national crisis when trade abruptly breaks down between two countries. 

I believe its a misconception that some people think any business needs to compete on the global market, well, no truly it does not. It is good if they can, and especially if it's not at the cost of devastating the industries globally. 
...

Tariff could actually may improve technology if used wisely.

Imagine if USA had heavy tariff on consumer electronics 20 years ago enough to keep consumer electronics manufacturing state-side, competition within the USA will drive development in manufacturing technology to drive down cost to compete within the USA as well as globally.

That may seem theoretical, but take a look at farming, automation greatly reduced production cost within the EU making farming still viable.  EU tariff for agricultural products (pre-current trade war around the corner) average is around 30% and US tariff is around 10% [1].  Without that, EU's farming may long since moved to the Americas (USA, Brazil, Argentina, etc.) or elsewhere.  Instead, EU's farming is still viable, EU's automation and robotics likely benefited [2] instead of becoming obsolete - and all these happens without the need of importing labor to do "jobs that Europeans wouldn't do."

References/sources:
[1]  Economic Research Service, USDA publication: "U.S. and EU Farm Policy—How Similar?"
The 30% average is from reading the bar graph on page 17, figure 1B "U.S., EU average agricultural tariffs, megatariffs".  Average (as far as the resolution a bar graph goes) look like 10 v 30 for the average tariff, and around 20 v 140 for mega-tariff.
https://www.ers.usda.gov/webdocs/publications/40408/30643_wrs0404c_002.pdf

[2]  Article from ArgiTech Tomorrow, "Automating Agriculture: How Automation and Robotics Have Taken to the Fields", 2018
"...Jonathan Wilkins, marketing director at obsolete industrial parts supplier, EU Automation, explains how automation is benefiting the farming industry...fitness trackers for cows is a blossoming industry...market revenue of $2,927 million in 2016, but is expected to rocket to $11,050 million in 2023.  But why is automation spilling out of the automotive, aerospace and electronic sectors and into the agricultural market?..."
[RL: emphasis added to quote]
https://www.agritechtomorrow.com/article/2018/02/automating-agriculture-how-automation-and-robotics-have-taken-to-the-fields/10511
 

Offline innkeeper

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Re: EU tariffs on US goods come into force
« Reply #94 on: June 27, 2018, 09:40:06 pm »
We dont know the future in 100 years, and yes political threads have tendency to freak out, but if i was a american citizen i would, before puking billion numbers on Trumps trade war etc, have a serious thought on where the 21 Trillion dollars went? (with a silent finger pointing at the general direction of the Pentagon) im happy in not a american citizen.
defense of other nations mostly, and hence the ongoing changes in that policy in this administration. but that's getting into politics again.
so easy to get off track on the tariff discussion, though, somewhat related when it comes to debt :)
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Online nctnico

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Re: EU tariffs on US goods come into force
« Reply #95 on: June 27, 2018, 09:55:12 pm »
@hero999

OK I'll bite...
whats your formula for reversing the trade deficit the USA has been suffering with over the last 43+ years since the reduction or elimination of tariffs for goods and services coming into the USA.

In my view, the continual bleeding off countries net worth from trade deficit cannot be sustained forever, and as you can see in the graph on post #53.

....obviously, you don't believe tariffs I can respect that for sure...I do believe in tariffs as they worked well in the past.

So, what is the solution to the problem?
Make stuff which is worth more. IOW: educate the people and make them do higher qualified work. Judging from what I see on TV and read on news websites a large part of the population isn't participating efficiently in producing something which can be sold for a lot of money.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2018, 09:57:49 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline innkeeper

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Re: EU tariffs on US goods come into force
« Reply #96 on: June 27, 2018, 11:04:40 pm »
Make stuff which is worth more. IOW: educate the people and make them do higher qualified work. Judging from what I see on TV and read on news websites a large part of the population isn't participating efficiently in producing something which can be sold for a lot of money.

you side stepped the issue entirely, or you are intentionally blind to the issues..

let's take China as an example.. because its a nice contrast that's easy to highlight.
ok, so how does one offer competing products those educated people produce when your competing country in the market has a lower standard of living for their citizens, they do not adhere to the same working standards and safety as your country, doesn't the same regulations for environmental protection as your country and manipulates their currency, all adding up to being able to produce goods and services cheaper then you can in your country.  to compound the issue they take your countries business intellectual property for innovations within your country to produce them in their country without the R and D cost. Lastly, they manipulate their currency to make their goods cheaper on the world market.

Now they have an unfair advantage and they can import goods and services into your country far cheaper then they can be produced in your country, and even if you produced something on par price wise, their trade practices prevent you from marketing it within their borders, unless its an item they cant produce right away and can use it to then make more products to import into your country.

now what...

Hobbyist and a retired engineer and possibly a test equipment addict, though, searching for the equipment to test for that.
 

Offline IanB

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Re: EU tariffs on US goods come into force
« Reply #97 on: June 27, 2018, 11:27:36 pm »
let's take China as an example.. because its a nice contrast that's easy to highlight.
ok, so how does one offer competing products those educated people produce when your competing country in the market has a lower standard of living for their citizens, they do not adhere to the same working standards and safety as your country, doesn't the same regulations for environmental protection as your country and manipulates their currency, all adding up to being able to produce goods and services cheaper then you can in your country.  to compound the issue they take your countries business intellectual property for innovations within your country to produce them in their country without the R and D cost. Lastly, they manipulate their currency to make their goods cheaper on the world market.

Now they have an unfair advantage and they can import goods and services into your country far cheaper then they can be produced in your country, and even if you produced something on par price wise, their trade practices prevent you from marketing it within their borders, unless its an item they cant produce right away and can use it to then make more products to import into your country.

now what...

I think you are omitting a very important factor here. "China" did not do any of this, the USA did it. It was U.S. based companies that actively went to China and paid local companies to set up manufacturing facilities there. It was U.S. based companies that provided the IP and technical specifications so that the local companies could produce the goods the U.S. companies wanted made. And it was the U.S. companies that imported these goods back into the USA with effect of displacing domestic goods from the market. If you go around Walmart and trace the origin of all the items "Made in China", you will find they are being imported and sold by U.S. corporations with increased profits from lower costs and higher margins going to U.S. stock holders.

To address the root causes of this state of affairs would require structural changes to both import tariffs and corporate taxation. Since this would be inconvenient for the U.S. corporations who benefit, and which coincidentally also lobby and influence the government, it has not happened and will not happen until elected representatives start to represent the people who elect them instead of the corporations who pay them.

For this reason, the current noise about tariffs is just that: noise. Whatever is happening now is just a minor disturbance in the status quo that will not last and will soon be reversed and forgotten about.
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Offline innkeeper

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Re: EU tariffs on US goods come into force
« Reply #98 on: June 28, 2018, 12:16:33 am »
@IanB
i agree, It is totaly is the USA's own fault for it and i did say something similar in an earlier. 

As far as if its just noise.. time will tell.
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Offline Zero999

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Re: EU tariffs on US goods come into force
« Reply #99 on: June 28, 2018, 08:03:32 am »
@hero999

OK I'll bite...
whats your formula for reversing the trade deficit the USA has been suffering with over the last 43+ years since the reduction or elimination of tariffs for goods and services coming into the USA.

In my view, the continual bleeding off countries net worth from trade deficit cannot be sustained forever, and as you can see in the graph on post #53.

....obviously, you don't believe tariffs I can respect that for sure...I do believe in tariffs as they worked well in the past.

So, what is the solution to the problem?
There's no magic formula, because there's no problem with the trade deficit, which is a largely positive thing for the US. As mentioned above, companies such as Wallmart, who own the IP, get their produces made in China, in their factories, at a low cost and the profits go back to their shareholders.

...
on Tariffs in general, they serve a positive purpose.
Tarrifs help your country keeps its individual economy going, and seeks imports for items that are not practically produced inside their own borders, and exports those items that are impractical to produce in the countries they export to. in the case of the usa, post-WWII there was a need for the USA help prop up and rebuild the economies around the world, tariffs got in the way of that, but, now, those days are long gone. time for the USA to rebuild itself!

Another outcome of the lack of tariffs is it opens countries up to devastating their businesses where products and services can be produced in the country and then puts them at a national security risk in not being able to produce those products and services in a national crisis when trade abruptly breaks down between two countries. 

I believe its a misconception that some people think any business needs to compete on the global market, well, no truly it does not. It is good if they can, and especially if it's not at the cost of devastating the industries globally. 
...

Tariff could actually may improve technology if used wisely.

Imagine if USA had heavy tariff on consumer electronics 20 years ago enough to keep consumer electronics manufacturing state-side, competition within the USA will drive development in manufacturing technology to drive down cost to compete within the USA as well as globally.

That may seem theoretical, but take a look at farming, automation greatly reduced production cost within the EU making farming still viable.  EU tariff for agricultural products (pre-current trade war around the corner) average is around 30% and US tariff is around 10% [1].  Without that, EU's farming may long since moved to the Americas (USA, Brazil, Argentina, etc.) or elsewhere.  Instead, EU's farming is still viable, EU's automation and robotics likely benefited [2] instead of becoming obsolete - and all these happens without the need of importing labor to do "jobs that Europeans wouldn't do."
That sounds good in theory, but electronics are different to farming.

Suppose a tariff is imposed on consumer electronics? Companies will get round that by importing nearly complete items and finishing them off an automated factory, in the US.
 


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